Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby kaytenmags » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:03 pm

maggie has torn both crutiates. she had TPLO surgery on her first (right) knee dec 22, 2008.
she recovered BEAUTIFULLY from that operation. textbook. everything went fantastic. by the time summer came, we were walking and running with no limps at all, and playing fetch on the beach. :)

her second (left) knee blew less than a year later, and she had TPLO surgery on Nov 5th 2009. this time things are taking longer to recover, as she got an infection and is going to get her plates removed next week. other than that setback, she's expected to make a full recovery.
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby elegy » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:35 pm

luce had a traditional fishing-line repair in july 2007. her recovery was slow but unexciting.

in the spring of '08 she tore the second one and started having problems again with the first knee. it sucks to see your dog lame on both hind legs.

anyway, she had a TTA on the second knee, and the surgeon (different one than did the first knee) felt up the first knee while she was under anesthesia, said it felt "remarkably solid", said maybe a meniscus tear, and left it with a "wait and see". recovery from the TTA was FAST and amazing. she has had zero problems with the TTA knee since.

the first knee is significantly improved, though i don't know why. we didn't do anything other than just the crate rest because of her second surgery. she has trouble with it once in awhile (if it's especially cold and damp or if she really overdoes it) but i think i've given her rimadyl maybe half a dozen times since this past spring. i can tell that it's not *right* (she will not sphinx down from a stand, for example) but it doesn't seem to trouble her significantly.

i'm in no hurry to do a fishing-line repair on another dog. i am completely sold on the TTA, if only from how much easier the recovery seemed to be on her.
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby Kingsgurl » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:05 pm

Martin is doing great. He had the traditional on both legs at once, as I said. You would never know it. He is on a Glucosomine supplement, but never needs pain meds
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby turtle » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:37 pm

Thanks for the updates!

Elegy, could I ask what a TTA is? The search feature here is not working well and I am not smart with a lot of the abbreviations... And the traditional repair did not work so well for Luce? About how long was her recovery with that surgery? I am glad she is doing better now.

My Fremiet is doing pretty well, it's been almost 2 months. She is going on short walks but it is so cold out now with all the snow and ice that it is hard to walk her and keep her from slipping on the ice. She does seem to be using her leg more.

Good to hear that Martin is fully recovered! Having 2 legs done at one would be quite a recovery task. Do the supplements help? I have been giving her the Liquid Health 5000 for about 4 years now.
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:32 pm

My girl had an old injury from years before I adopted her and with all her other health complications, and considering that her leg had completely stabilized, we opted not to do surgery at all. However, had she been younger and healthier, I totally would have done the TPLO, or ideally, TTA. The recovery is SO much quicker and easier. But it also comes with a MUCH higher price tag.

It's too bad the breed is so prone but all that darn zooming and bum-wiggling means that the majority of them will suffer this injury at some point in their life.
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby brat pack » Thu May 13, 2010 9:15 pm

Eeyore had the Lateral Suture (fishing line, or traditional) surgery the first time out. We just took him back a year later and had it re-done. This time a TPLO. I was nervous about the whole bone cutting thing too but was so much happier with this surgery. It has been 13 days and he is already walking very good. Now I have to figure out how to make him stay calm for 8 weeks. Pinch collar keeps him under control pretty good. Hope to be in the show ring by the end of the year. He only needs one champion win to grand.
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby Kingsgurl » Fri May 14, 2010 11:00 pm

They let you show a dog in conformation after that type of surgery? They cut bone and changed angles in the leg surgically, seems like something they wouldn't allow.
I hope Eeyore recovers quickly!
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby SquirrelDog6 » Sun May 16, 2010 6:03 pm

I know someone who is showing and placing with their Whippet after this surgery. She took top honors at the last show. My trainer asked about it and was given two reasons that it was allowed. The first was due to the high energy of the breed. Both Whippets and Pitts are have some common blood in the tough mouthed little terriers that the British used to create these breeds. I never noticed until I owned a Whippet, but If you look at the jaw line, near the cheeks, the jaw is very strong, so this is true, anyway, they are both high energy players and the high energy running and jumping that they do tends to tear up their knees just like it does with basketball and football players. It's not so much of a breeding issue like luxation in Chihuahuas and Pomeranians, but an effect of their lifestyle. Many, but not all judges accept this as a reason. The second reason is if the dog is very young, the injury can be blamed on puppy to puppy rough housing, again not a bad breeding issue, but just an accidental injury. The Whippet that was placing was ten months old, so she fit both of these categories. She had an obvious scar, but was still winning! 8)
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby Kingsgurl » Mon May 17, 2010 1:31 am

I find this interesting. Having had 2 dogs with cruciate issues and listening to lengthy discussions from surgeons who say that very few cruciate injuries in canines are actually due to 'injury' or one traumatic event (as does happen in people) but rather a cumulative 'wear and tear' on the joint due to structure. I wouldn't think it would be allowed in the show ring. Hell, we get a dog into my work who has had 3 root canals on teeth because pulling them would mess up his show career. Just seems odd. I do wonder a couple of things. Why the rise in this problem in our breed? Is there ANY way to foresee it? Is it really structural? If it is, should dogs who have suffered one be bred? Random musings :huh?:
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby SquirrelDog6 » Mon May 17, 2010 8:10 am

I wouldn't have believed that they could win in the ring either, but I saw it with my own eyes. I think that there are a couple things to think about when it comes to the rise in this injury. First off, a rise in breed popularity. There are significantly more Pits then were around before. I agree/disagree with vets who say it is more due to breeding then injury. For starters, I don't feel like the majority of the vets out there spend a majority of the time with these breeds. Breeds like Labs and Rotts are almost 100% likely to do this in their lifetime. I'm not really sure that they understand how hard they play. My Whippet was bred by my vet and I know many people who own his dogs. She is just recovered from a sprain in her knee. Surgery was not recommended, as her recovery went well on rest and roadwork with both traditional and holistic anti inflammatories. This injury is not found in her family. She was running hard and slamming around in daycare just like some breeds tend to do and it was a bad step. She's only a year, so I expect her to screw herself up again in her future. Most of the dogs I know that have had this problem were young, how would that equal wear and tear? It's true that some lines of Pits may be more prone, but at the same time, who hasn't seen them go all out when they play? If you rescue, you may not know what you're getting, so bad breeding may be his lot, especially if you have a mix that includes Labs, because Labs are the # 1 dog for this surgery. There is also something that troubles me in the show ring right now and that is the breeding away from function. I am originally from the horse world and one thing that keeps us on our toes, is that aside from halter horses, most show horses have to maintain the function of the animal to make it rideable. We have to look at the breed look at what we want it to do (not just look cool) and breed for solid function. Bullies no longer bring down bulls and fight for a living, people want them for agility, ralley, pulling etc. ,as well as for family pets. We need to look at these functions and choose to breed into them. I think that Dave Wilson has done very well with this subject with his Razors Edge American Bully Dogs. It's never easy in the show world and sometimes it takes a little bit of losing in the ring, but a firm beliefe in what you're doing for the better good. The show ring is based on trends, so when people see your strong healthy dogs lasting the test of time, it will catch on. As for the teeth. Those teeth are showpeople's obcessesion! It's crazy, you'll see a German Shepherd walk into the ring with legs so screwed up, he's a walking abortion, and the judges are screwing around looking at teeth! :))
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby brat pack » Mon May 17, 2010 8:42 pm

As far as Eeyore, he got his leg hung in the hinge mechinism of a old recliner. He was running around the living room and ran over the chair and went to jump off and sat back down. Then we saw his leg stuck in the hinge. We think he tore it then and further rough housing tore it more.
If he finishes in the ring that will be great. If he doesn't, that will be good too. I just want him to be sound again and not to be in pain. He is a special dog to us.
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby SquirrelDog6 » Tue May 18, 2010 4:34 pm

I've heard more stories like this, then I have genitic issues. My girl did something in daycare and Ireally didn't give it much thought, I thought she was just fooling around, so we played in the yard and went running. Later on, she showed up lame. Luckily, hers was a strain, or small tear and my vet healed her up with no surgery, but with her energy level, I can't imagine she won't screw it up again in the future. I hope that your Eyore gets fixed up soon.
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby Kingsgurl » Tue May 18, 2010 9:23 pm

That's why I have questions about this particular injury in APBT. I don't think it can just be laid at the door of the rise in popularity of the breed. I've owned them since 1984 and NEVER had a dog come up with one. Now both my current dogs have had it. I recently heard theories linking it to the way people currently tend to keep dogs (ie, they are more usually kept either inside or crated, not loose to run all day in the yard (or, heaven forbid, running the neighborhood) Let's face it, in the house, they lay on the couch (or the bed roflmao ) while we are gone, then play hard when we come home. Kind of makes sense to me (the week end warrior syndrome) I just wish I KNEW more about it since I sure as hell want to avoid it in the future!
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby SquirrelDog6 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:40 am

I can understand your concern, about not wanting it to happen to you again. Their could be some truth to the weekend warrior syndrom. I was kind of concerned about crating, but then more concerned about what happens when my dog is free and I'm gone. It's a hard call, I wouldn't be suprised if the answer lies somewhere between all of these concepts. The best thing when it comes to weekend warrior syndrom, is to make sure your dog os warmed up. I don't cut my girls loose in the yard when I get home. I ignore them for about twenty minutes, then take them out for potty on the leash, feed them, and walk them and then the rough stuff. I tried to argue the crate, but then, if excercised, my girls sleep all day even if I'm home. In defense of the breeding arguement, The APBT has changed alot since 1984. They used to be a bit more leggy and their faces weren't as flat. I think breeders have been selecling a little bit more for bulldog traits which could be bringing out the bulldog knees. I really hope breeders trend away from the flatter face look a bit, because the problems associated with that are HUGE, our biggest problems may be yet ahead of us, if we continue down that road. I agree alot with you about activity, because the injuries I have seen in this breed and in Whippets (what I'm dealling with now, as I don't have an APBT foster here now) is that it is an injury from rough play. Breeding wise, we have to go back to the joint structure first, muscling after, unfortunately, people have been focusing alot on muscling on the dogs and maybe they aren't paying attention to breeding the joints up to date. The joint has to be able to hold the muscle attached to it. If you are dealing with rescue Pitts, I would assume for this to be true. These backyard breedes, drug thugs and fighting dog people are breeding for muscle, they're fighting the dogs at two years and then throwing them away. They really aren't breeding for structure and the dogs are deffinately hyped up. I would suppose, if one were to rescue one of these, there could be a multitude of factures from behavioral to physiological that are combining in a bad way and hurting the breed. As for prevention, I think supervised excercise could help. My Whippet was injured when she was playing hard with other Whippets. Know how your dog plays, don't let him get carried away, or take sharp turns when running, good food and supplements, walks to keep weight down, and keeping an eye on breeding. Breed enthusiests sway breeders with their desires for a certain look, we need to learn to recognize stuff and speak up when it starts going south. If purchased, do the breedres know that both of your dogs are affected by this?
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Re: Torn CCL Sugury-what to expect

Postby kaytenmags » Wed May 19, 2010 10:14 am

in maggie's case, i'd say it's a pretty fair mix of bad genetics and her high energy on/off switch. she doesn't know how to go slow, so if she's going to do anything, she's going to do it at full speed. she is also very straight in the back end. i knew that when i got her, figured she'd blow a knee, so i got insurance for her. man am i ever glad i got that! she's currently recovering from knee surgery number 4. her insurance premiums have been paid for manymany times over already. two TPLO surgeries at $4,000 each, one plate removal for about $600, one surgery to correct a tendon problem $2400. luckily, my insurance covers 90% of all those costs.

as far as the injuries being acute or cumulative, we've had one of each. her first CCL tear was over time. it took months to diagnose, and although it was a suspected partial tear, it was found to be completely torn (she just doesn't show pain well). the second one was instant. zoomies, jump in the air, land, stop moving, and instant tripod dog. i think the cumulative injuries are more common, but maggie just likes to even out the statistics lol
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