OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:00 am

haircrazie016 wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:
Eclipse wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:It does make it hard to read canine body language. I'm sorry I haven't seen proof other wise.


no offense but, the only way this would be true is if the person looking doesnt have the experience and knowledge to understand what they are looking at.



This is completely untrue. I know a good bit about Canine body language, and it takes more than a stiff body and raised hairs to tell what the dog is going trough. When the ears are cropped, especially the crop job that looks like little nubs of the ear is left, you cannot read the dogs ear signals. The ears are also unnaturally positioned upwards, and that is how they stay because of how the cartilage heals.


This post is proof you clearly dont have experience working with or reading dogs that are cropped and/or docked. One of our dogs has a show crop, the other has nubs for ears, and I can without question read their body language, and facial expressions with ease. Couda and Piggie move their ears the same way every other dog does, they can pin them back, prick them up, leave them relaxed, etc etc. Just because they are shaped differently, doesnt mean they don't do the same things. This also applies to docked tails.

p.s. there is nothing unnatural about ears standing up, there are numerous breeds whos natural ears stand straight up by standard, and there are plenty of dogs including pit bulls whos natural ears stand straight up by default.


I have never seen a Pit bull of any breed with naturally straight up in the air ears. There are breeds who's ears are by natural upright, GSD for example. I still don't think it is a good thing to do. If you do it so, thats you, but I myself will not. For reasons stated above.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:09 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote: When the ears are cropped, especially the crop job that looks like little nubs of the ear is left, you cannot read the dogs ear signals. The ears are also unnaturally positioned upwards, and that is how they stay because of how the cartilage heals.


i can agree that it could be hardER to tell if there are only stubs left, as with Judice, he had no ears basically when I got him. But his new owner understands quite well what Judice is feeling or wants. The one thing about SHORT SHORT ears is that you have to keep them extra clean or they can easily get an infection cause they literally have NOTHING to protect them from dirt getting deep inside.

BUT, not all dogs ears are "unnaturally" upwards. Though Riley and Bailey dont have complete upright ears, many of their siblings do. Lou's ears stand up almost 95% of the time.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/darknessfalls_again/My%20Dogs/Lulu010.jpg

there is nothing unnatural about her ears. there was nothing done to make them this way. they just stand up. I have seen several other dog's photos with naturally up ears as well. Its something that is rather quite common in pitbulls and other breeds whose ears get cropped.

Alot of times the ears will not stand up at all because the simple weight of the ear is too much for the cartlidge to hold..

I will once again make reference to my friend's doberman pups. Before posting, they will often just let the dogs ears "lay" and heal before posting. and 3 out of her 5 pups, partially stood on their own without the posting. (posting was still done to correct mild differences and positioning, i.e. one forming to rest at the side rather than both front and forward). Cropping returns the natural abilities of the ear that the long and floppiness takes away. Cropping it allows it to function like a natural dog ear, able to perk-up, position toward sounds, and lay flat.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby haircrazie016 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:17 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote:
haircrazie016 wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:
Eclipse wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:It does make it hard to read canine body language. I'm sorry I haven't seen proof other wise.


no offense but, the only way this would be true is if the person looking doesnt have the experience and knowledge to understand what they are looking at.



This is completely untrue. I know a good bit about Canine body language, and it takes more than a stiff body and raised hairs to tell what the dog is going trough. When the ears are cropped, especially the crop job that looks like little nubs of the ear is left, you cannot read the dogs ear signals. The ears are also unnaturally positioned upwards, and that is how they stay because of how the cartilage heals.


This post is proof you clearly dont have experience working with or reading dogs that are cropped and/or docked. One of our dogs has a show crop, the other has nubs for ears, and I can without question read their body language, and facial expressions with ease. Couda and Piggie move their ears the same way every other dog does, they can pin them back, prick them up, leave them relaxed, etc etc. Just because they are shaped differently, doesnt mean they don't do the same things. This also applies to docked tails.

p.s. there is nothing unnatural about ears standing up, there are numerous breeds whos natural ears stand straight up by standard, and there are plenty of dogs including pit bulls whos natural ears stand straight up by default.


I have never seen a Pit bull of any breed with naturally straight up in the air ears. There are breeds who's ears are by natural upright, GSD for example. I still don't think it is a good thing to do. If you do it so, thats you, but I myself will not. For reasons stated above.



here you go, my pit bull foster
Image

you can also check out the gallery on this forum as we have a few dogs with stand up ears, elegy just recently posted pictures so you can see another example right there.

You dont have to think its a good thing to do, but do not say things that arent true, such as you cannot read the dogs body language as a result of a crop or dock. Because again maybe YOU can't, but anyone who knows what their looking at can.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:21 am

Luna_Redmoon wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote: When the ears are cropped, especially the crop job that looks like little nubs of the ear is left, you cannot read the dogs ear signals. The ears are also unnaturally positioned upwards, and that is how they stay because of how the cartilage heals.

Cropping it allows it to function like a natural dog ear, able to perk-up, position toward sounds, and lay flat.


wait, Do what? You are going to put your dog through a surgery that fixes a dogs ears to make them naturally stand up 'like they are suppose to'?

Who ever said that a Dobies ears is suppose to be straight up in the air? They are a floppy eared dog and the majority of pit bull breeds are too. You are right, dogs ears become floppy because the weight of the ear is too much for the cartilage, but what you are missing is that not all dogs ears are suppose to stand up like that. People get their dogs ears cropped and tails docked because everyone else does it. Their dogs don't look like 'pit bulls' with out their ears chopped off. No they don't look like pit bulls with it done.

I am not saying that a couple dogs here and there will not have naturally upright ears, but that is how their ears are suppose to be. To have a surgery done on your dogs ears because they aren't how you want them is plain selfish. It doesn't hurt the dog to have floppy ears.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:25 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote:
I have never seen a Pit bull of any breed with naturally straight up in the air ears. There are breeds who's ears are by natural upright, GSD for example. I still don't think it is a good thing to do. If you do it so, thats you, but I myself will not. For reasons stated above.



yours nuts... seriously. the dog in YOUR avatar... the ears are partially standing up. And you must obviously dont know the breed. Back when people used the dogs solely for cattle they actually encouraged the ears to stand up. They believed it made it better for the dog to hear. Thats why so many dogs today have partially stand up ears, or half pricked, to full stand up, full pricked. NATURALLY. And as there is with any dog, and you, being a pitbull owner and being here on this forum should know this, ANY dog breed has the goods and the bads. And most go unseen. Like the "nice pitbull vs aggressive" the nice is unseen. With GSD... "naturally stand up ears vs coaxed ears" most people dont see where people have had to tape, post and even glue their ears to stand.

just about all breeds there is some oddball whose ears naturally stand up when others are flopped. chihuahuas, great danes, pitbulls, schnauzers, and others.

so just because YOU havent seen it, doesnt mean they dont exist (this does not include unicorns and dragons XD )
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:35 am

Luna_Redmoon wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:
I have never seen a Pit bull of any breed with naturally straight up in the air ears. There are breeds who's ears are by natural upright, GSD for example. I still don't think it is a good thing to do. If you do it so, thats you, but I myself will not. For reasons stated above.



yours nuts... seriously. the dog in YOUR avatar... the ears are partially standing up. And you must obviously dont know the breed. Back when people used the dogs solely for cattle they actually encouraged the ears to stand up. They believed it made it better for the dog to hear. Thats why so many dogs today have partially stand up ears, or half pricked, to full stand up, full pricked. NATURALLY. And as there is with any dog, and you, being a pitbull owner and being here on this forum should know this, ANY dog breed has the goods and the bads. And most go unseen. Like the "nice pitbull vs aggressive" the nice is unseen. With GSD... "naturally stand up ears vs coaxed ears" most people dont see where people have had to tape, post and even glue their ears to stand.

just about all breeds there is some oddball whose ears naturally stand up when others are flopped. chihuahuas, great danes, pitbulls, schnauzers, and others.

so just because YOU havent seen it, doesnt mean they dont exist (this does not include unicorns and dragons XD )

Image


XD You apparently haven't seen any other pictures of snow. That was a mid air bounce that made her ears go like that. Her ears are floppy and all the way down. And i'm not saying they don't. If their ears will naturally stand up like that more power to them. But I am not going to put my dog or any future dog I own through a surgery to make their ears stand up because thats how the public thinks they should look. I like the natural look, and a dog who's ears haven't been tampered with and their ears stand up fully is just darn cute. But to make a dogs ears that are naturally floppy look like that is not.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby haircrazie016 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:38 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote:
Luna_Redmoon wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote: When the ears are cropped, especially the crop job that looks like little nubs of the ear is left, you cannot read the dogs ear signals. The ears are also unnaturally positioned upwards, and that is how they stay because of how the cartilage heals.

Cropping it allows it to function like a natural dog ear, able to perk-up, position toward sounds, and lay flat.


wait, Do what? You are going to put your dog through a surgery that fixes a dogs ears to make them naturally stand up 'like they are suppose to'?

Who ever said that a Dobies ears is suppose to be straight up in the air? They are a floppy eared dog and the majority of pit bull breeds are too. You are right, dogs ears become floppy because the weight of the ear is too much for the cartilage, but what you are missing is that not all dogs ears are suppose to stand up like that. People get their dogs ears cropped and tails docked because everyone else does it. Their dogs don't look like 'pit bulls' with out their ears chopped off. No they don't look like pit bulls with it done.

I am not saying that a couple dogs here and there will not have naturally upright ears, but that is how their ears are suppose to be. To have a surgery done on your dogs ears because they aren't how you want them is plain selfish. It doesn't hurt the dog to have floppy ears.



so now what this comes down to is you simply do not like it personally. Not that it makes it so you cannot read their body language.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:39 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote:Who ever said that a Dobies ears is suppose to be straight up in the air?


people started cropping the ears back when protection work came about. and possibly even before then. I will copy pasta this from a website.

"There are two primary reasons for cropped ears, and both have to do with FUNCTION. The first is that a neatly cropped ear is less of a "handle" for an attacker to hang on to. Since the Doberman has been bred to be a personal protector, a cropped ear gives the dog a decided advantage in a confrontation with a perpetrator. The second has to do with sound "localization". An erect earred dog can localize the source of a sound to within a 5 degree cone, whereas a drop earred dog can only localize a sound source to within a 20 degree cone. Since Dobermans do SEARCH AND DETECTION as well as SEARCH AND RESCUE, cropped ears are a decided advantage. There is no disqualification from the showring for uncropped ears so people can and do show Dobermans in the US which are not cropped,. "
http://spear-barkennels.com/About_Dobermans.php

SnowKoi2010 wrote:Their dogs don't look like 'pit bulls' with out their ears chopped off. No they don't look like pit bulls with it done.

Dobermans look like badly bred Black and Tan Hounds without their ears cut... and alot of times, not saying all, non cropped pitbulls can look like boxers or american bulldogs. Go to that thread where it talks about misidentifications. Everyone there knows.

Riley is purebred and he has been called both. why? because of his ears 9 times out of 10.

BUT. I still did not get his ears cut. just some people, they prefer it to look like the standard. And when you see show dogs. are they or are they not mostly cropped? Very rarely will you ever see a dog with flop ears, because alot of judges associate it with bad conformation.
[/quote]

SnowKoi2010 wrote: It doesn't hurt the dog to have floppy ears.


Actually, as stated above. It really can if the dog is under certain types of work. And, not that Im not promotion it at all cause Id kill the B*****ds that i end up with rescues from. BUT, even fighting dogs people have cropped the ears because of the "work" involved... if you want to call it that. Alot of hunting dogs even have their ears cut because of dangers in the hunt.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:42 am

So through both pictures shown here, Snow has the ability to raise her ears, at least part way, just no reason to, or was not taught that it could be part od body language when younger.


I have never seen a Pit bull of any breed with naturally straight up in the air ears.


I like the natural look, and a dog who's ears haven't been tampered with and their ears stand up fully is just darn cute.


so...which is it? you HAVE seen pits with natural up ears...or you havent???
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:48 am

Do what? Snow was never tought how to properly raise her ears due to body language? roflmao What kind of crap is that? Snow is a dog with floppy ears. Her ears never naturally stood upright. When alert they are brought forward, when relaxed they are relaxed.
Image
Image
Image

As for breeds that they cropped their ears for working purposes, it was just for that or medical reasons. Not because everyone else was doing it. Cosmetic surgery with no benefit outcome is just selfish.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:48 am

Luna_Redmoon wrote:So through both pictures shown here, Snow has the ability to raise her ears, at least part way, just no reason to, or was not taught that it could be part od body language when younger.


I have never seen a Pit bull of any breed with naturally straight up in the air ears.


I like the natural look, and a dog who's ears haven't been tampered with and their ears stand up fully is just darn cute.


so...which is it? you HAVE seen pits with natural up ears...or you havent???


I haven't until the pictures that was shown.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:56 am

the bottom pic, with the left ear is not fully flop or forward. therefor, has the ability to position it that way on her own.

Here is a good site that states what this thread is about.

http://www.gentledoberman.com/doberman-pinscher-ear-cropping/controversy

And I will post a few here for those that dont want to search on their own.

Cropping is essentially returning normal function to the ear. The long floppy ear is in fact ‘unnatural,' bred into the ancestors of the Doberman by man. The cropped ear is the tradition of the Doberman breed and of many other breeds


Original reasons for the Doberman ear crop were to protect it. Removing the long fragile part of the ear removes liability from a protection dog.



Additional liability accompanies the unaltered ear in that posture is less apparent. Cropped ears display the dog’s mood in starkly evident ways that the long floppy ears are incapable of. This is an especially crucial need for a powerful protection dog, whether it is being used for protection or not.




Also, the Floppiness of a dogs ears as a recessive gene. All breed dogs and mutts and domesticated canines with floppy ears descended from wild canines. Whose ears are...? NATURALLY STAND UP.

Wolves, hyenas, foxes, coyotes, etc. people liked the floppy ears and BRED for it, basically breeding out what comes NATURAL. For the "appealing" looke and dire of humans.

Very rarely do you ever see a wild dog with born, flop ears. And more often than not, especially in a pack, the alpha would kill it because its a sign of weakness in the wild.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:02 am

Omg. Okay look I don't like it. If thats what you want to do with your dog then thats fine. But I still disagree with EVERYthing you say and NO snow does not have the ability to lift that ear up. There is a reason for that. Maybe because her ears are, omg TOO HEAVY for the cartilage to life the ear up! Oh my, I do believe you said something about this is why dogs have floppy ears. [/Sarcasm]

Look, Bottom line is I think its wrong you have no problems with it. There are dogs with ears upright and there are dogs with ears that fold over. SO WHAT. I don't believe in correcting something that you deem to be a fault. :/ I see no medical reasons to do it and still think its selfish. You find every excuse in the book to have your dogs ears cropped. Good for you.

:D But at the end of the conversation I will still sleep soundly and not toss in my sleep because I didn't get my dogs ears cropped because other people thinks its natural.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:10 am

actually... I have never cropped any of my personal dogs, or rescue dogs' ears for any reason than medical.
However, I have a 16 week old puppy going soon for an ear cropping FOR A MEDICAL CONDITION. a deformity with his right ear and is not growing right. the end of the ear is assumed dead.

As well, as I well as I had Bubbah Elizabeth, who had been fought and with ears so badly torn, it was best to cut them.

I dont have a problem with it because,
its primarily show preferred.
great and better for working dogs.
and it reduces damages done to the ears through playing or random dog attacks.

if its done by a professional, and the owners take care, administer pain med, and done while asleep. its fine. but only with younger puppies, or adult dogs if absolutely needed.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:14 am

I don't have an issue with it if it is done for medical reasons only. But doing it just because you think the dog's ears naturally should look like that is where I draw the line. I have seen some nice crop jobs, but that doesn't mean I will ever do it. And actually the UKC doesn't advise cropping and docking. And it is banned in England and most of Europe. I don't think show rings should promote it either, but the do and who am I to stop them?
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