OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
User avatar
SnowKoi2010
Bully Lover 4 Life
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:16 pm
Location: Oil City, LA
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:48 am

Do what? Snow was never tought how to properly raise her ears due to body language? roflmao What kind of crap is that? Snow is a dog with floppy ears. Her ears never naturally stood upright. When alert they are brought forward, when relaxed they are relaxed.
Image
Image
Image

As for breeds that they cropped their ears for working purposes, it was just for that or medical reasons. Not because everyone else was doing it. Cosmetic surgery with no benefit outcome is just selfish.

User avatar
SnowKoi2010
Bully Lover 4 Life
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:16 pm
Location: Oil City, LA
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:48 am

Luna_Redmoon wrote:So through both pictures shown here, Snow has the ability to raise her ears, at least part way, just no reason to, or was not taught that it could be part od body language when younger.


I have never seen a Pit bull of any breed with naturally straight up in the air ears.


I like the natural look, and a dog who's ears haven't been tampered with and their ears stand up fully is just darn cute.


so...which is it? you HAVE seen pits with natural up ears...or you havent???


I haven't until the pictures that was shown.

User avatar
Luna_Redmoon
Newborn Bully
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:29 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:56 am

the bottom pic, with the left ear is not fully flop or forward. therefor, has the ability to position it that way on her own.

Here is a good site that states what this thread is about.

http://www.gentledoberman.com/doberman-pinscher-ear-cropping/controversy

And I will post a few here for those that dont want to search on their own.

Cropping is essentially returning normal function to the ear. The long floppy ear is in fact ‘unnatural,' bred into the ancestors of the Doberman by man. The cropped ear is the tradition of the Doberman breed and of many other breeds


Original reasons for the Doberman ear crop were to protect it. Removing the long fragile part of the ear removes liability from a protection dog.



Additional liability accompanies the unaltered ear in that posture is less apparent. Cropped ears display the dog’s mood in starkly evident ways that the long floppy ears are incapable of. This is an especially crucial need for a powerful protection dog, whether it is being used for protection or not.




Also, the Floppiness of a dogs ears as a recessive gene. All breed dogs and mutts and domesticated canines with floppy ears descended from wild canines. Whose ears are...? NATURALLY STAND UP.

Wolves, hyenas, foxes, coyotes, etc. people liked the floppy ears and BRED for it, basically breeding out what comes NATURAL. For the "appealing" looke and dire of humans.

Very rarely do you ever see a wild dog with born, flop ears. And more often than not, especially in a pack, the alpha would kill it because its a sign of weakness in the wild.

User avatar
SnowKoi2010
Bully Lover 4 Life
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:16 pm
Location: Oil City, LA
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:02 am

Omg. Okay look I don't like it. If thats what you want to do with your dog then thats fine. But I still disagree with EVERYthing you say and NO snow does not have the ability to lift that ear up. There is a reason for that. Maybe because her ears are, omg TOO HEAVY for the cartilage to life the ear up! Oh my, I do believe you said something about this is why dogs have floppy ears. [/Sarcasm]

Look, Bottom line is I think its wrong you have no problems with it. There are dogs with ears upright and there are dogs with ears that fold over. SO WHAT. I don't believe in correcting something that you deem to be a fault. :/ I see no medical reasons to do it and still think its selfish. You find every excuse in the book to have your dogs ears cropped. Good for you.

:D But at the end of the conversation I will still sleep soundly and not toss in my sleep because I didn't get my dogs ears cropped because other people thinks its natural.

User avatar
Luna_Redmoon
Newborn Bully
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:29 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:10 am

actually... I have never cropped any of my personal dogs, or rescue dogs' ears for any reason than medical.
However, I have a 16 week old puppy going soon for an ear cropping FOR A MEDICAL CONDITION. a deformity with his right ear and is not growing right. the end of the ear is assumed dead.

As well, as I well as I had Bubbah Elizabeth, who had been fought and with ears so badly torn, it was best to cut them.

I dont have a problem with it because,
its primarily show preferred.
great and better for working dogs.
and it reduces damages done to the ears through playing or random dog attacks.

if its done by a professional, and the owners take care, administer pain med, and done while asleep. its fine. but only with younger puppies, or adult dogs if absolutely needed.

User avatar
SnowKoi2010
Bully Lover 4 Life
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:16 pm
Location: Oil City, LA
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:14 am

I don't have an issue with it if it is done for medical reasons only. But doing it just because you think the dog's ears naturally should look like that is where I draw the line. I have seen some nice crop jobs, but that doesn't mean I will ever do it. And actually the UKC doesn't advise cropping and docking. And it is banned in England and most of Europe. I don't think show rings should promote it either, but the do and who am I to stop them?

User avatar
Eclipse
Matured Bully
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Eclipse » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:24 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote:
Eclipse wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:It does make it hard to read canine body language. I'm sorry I haven't seen proof other wise.


no offense but, the only way this would be true is if the person looking doesnt have the experience and knowledge to understand what they are looking at.



This is completely untrue. I know a good bit about Canine body language, and it takes more than a stiff body and raised hairs to tell what the dog is going trough. When the ears are cropped, especially the crop job that looks like little nubs of the ear is left, you cannot read the dogs ear signals. The ears are also unnaturally positioned upwards, and that is how they stay because of how the cartilage heals.


My statement is not "completely untrue" What first hand experience do you have to back up your argument or where is the scientific evidence that states what you are claiming?


User avatar
SnowKoi2010
Bully Lover 4 Life
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:16 pm
Location: Oil City, LA
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:36 am

There is not scientific proof and you know there isn't thats why you where being a smart butt and bring it up. I say its untrue thats my own Opinion. And dogs who's stand up by cropping is said to make them look more mean or alert. Anyways I have to go to bed. Night.

and Luna, give it up.

User avatar
Eclipse
Matured Bully
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Eclipse » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:51 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote:There is not scientific proof and you know there isn't thats why you where being a smart butt and bring it up. I say its untrue thats my own Opinion. And dogs who's stand up by cropping is said to make them look more mean or alert. Anyways I have to go to bed. Night.

and Luna, give it up.


I asked for either first hand experience or scientific evidence. In the other posts it appeared as though you were stating "facts". I just wanted to reiterate that it was your opinion not facts.

As far as dogs looking "more mean or alert". Once again thats an opinion.

User avatar
Luna_Redmoon
Newborn Bully
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:29 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:19 am

Name ONE wild dog, with natural, floppy ears.
And, ask any vet, or wildlife biologist, or anyone that studies evolution. DOGS were selectively bred from WILD wolves, coyotes, etc. Therefore, ALL dogs, are made by selectively breeding mutations. Originally, all dogs ears stood up. But, people, thinking its "cute" breed for the flop ear. And then breeding for other things, like height, coat length, color patterns, etc. And the genetic mutations got out of hand, over bred, and because of that, most dogs now are flop eared.

Recent study, mocking evolution, and proving the fact.
http://blogs.discovery.com/animal_oddities/2009/07/tame-foxes.html


Also, last I checked, this was a DEBATE thread on the topic. Therefor I am free to state anything that pertains to such.

I just dont like that you stated "no dogs ears naturally stand up" "stand up ears are unnatural" "train to ears to stand up in an unnatural way"

when you are wrong. because ALL dogs, originally, ears stood up.

come to think of it... I cant even think of any wild animal whose ears naturally flop... o.O
Even bunnies were bred to have that characteristic.

Except for maybe goats... but I dont study too much into Ungulates... So I dont know their original roots.

User avatar
SnowKoi2010
Bully Lover 4 Life
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:16 pm
Location: Oil City, LA
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:55 am

You are right, this is a debate thread but you are taking it way out of context. There is a HUGE difference between wolves and Dogs. ASK your biologist. When we domesticated the species that became the dog they developed floppy ears. But because they now have floppy ears doesn't mean their ears should be forced to be upright again. :/ This thread is about ear cropping not about Wild dogs with naturally upright ears.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Myths-about-Dog-Ear-Cropping

Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.

User avatar
Eclipse
Matured Bully
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Eclipse » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:58 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote:Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.


Not liking it and a false argument against it for impeding a dog's ability to communicate are two very different things.

If it is in the breed standard it is part of it, no way around it.

User avatar
SnowKoi2010
Bully Lover 4 Life
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:16 pm
Location: Oil City, LA
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:28 am

Eclipse wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.


Not liking it and a false argument against it for impeding a dog's ability to communicate are two very different things.

If it is in the breed standard it is part of it, no way around it.


No, Breed standard is what the dog looks like once its matured with out tampering. Adding Docking and Cropping to a dogs looks takes it away from the standard and adds to what people think the dog should look like.

As for communication, IMO It does. you might not think so but I have seen many pictures of dogs with cropped ears and if it wasn't for knowing what the face expression meant I couldn't tell how the dog was feeling. There are a lot of people out there that do not know Canine Body Language and could easily misinterpret a dog that looks as though it is smiling with its tongue sticking out and get bitten because the dog is really anxious.

User avatar
Eclipse
Matured Bully
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Eclipse » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:49 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote:
Eclipse wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.


Not liking it and a false argument against it for impeding a dog's ability to communicate are two very different things.

If it is in the breed standard it is part of it, no way around it.


No, Breed standard is what the dog looks like once its matured with out tampering. Adding Docking and Cropping to a dogs looks takes it away from the standard and adds to what people think the dog should look like.

As for communication, IMO It does. you might not think so but I have seen many pictures of dogs with cropped ears and if it wasn't for knowing what the face expression meant I couldn't tell how the dog was feeling. There are a lot of people out there that do not know Canine Body Language and could easily misinterpret a dog that looks as though it is smiling with its tongue sticking out and get bitten because the dog is really anxious.


Two definitions of breed standard
1. A breed standard (also called bench standard) in animal fancy and animal husbandry is a set of guidelines which is used to ensure that the animals produced by a breeder or breeding facility conform to the specifics of the breed.
2. Standard of excellence set up by a breed association for its breed.


First what does a dog smiling with its tongue sticking out have to do with the dog's ears. Seeing pictures of a dog and seeing a dog in front of you are two very different things.


Return to “Health Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSNbot Media and 5 guests