OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

[Eclipse]

It does make it hard to read canine body language. I'm sorry I haven't seen proof other wise.

no offense but, the only way this would be true is if the person looking doesnt have the experience and knowledge to understand what they are looking at.

This is completely untrue. I know a good bit about Canine body language, and it takes more than a stiff body and raised hairs to tell what the dog is going trough. When the ears are cropped, especially the crop job that looks like little nubs of the ear is left, you cannot read the dogs ear signals. The ears are also unnaturally positioned upwards, and that is how they stay because of how the cartilage heals.

My statement is not "completely untrue" What first hand experience do you have to back up your argument or where is the scientific evidence that states what you are claiming?

[Luna_Redmoon]

http://books.google.com/books?id=DeyzQI_a8EsC&pg=PT102&lpg=PT102&dq=flop+ear+wild+dog&source=bl&ots=NMVanz7NDM&sig=AQf53ks-F4XLmsZk6tcnGF17R_Y&hl=en&ei=co-qTfLYFc2Dtgf3xYHdBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA

http://www.cat.menswatchusa.com/cats/why-do-cats-have-ears-sticking-up-and-dogs-have-ears-sloping-down

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ears-up/127237-surgery.html

http://dobermansden.com/dobermanearcropping/

http://books.google.com/books?id=zIjkHwTJJFEC&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq=flop+ear+wild+dog&source=bl&ots=YPedJJeUXM&sig=v88Z2fZcCk-QpGq2A4wO-LYKFZk&hl=en&ei=3ZKqTb_6CIeEtgf54ajeBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB0Q6AEwATgU

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=21&ved=0CBYQFjAAOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheanimaltrainer.webs.com%2Fdogwolfbodylanguage.htm&ei=3ZKqTb_6CIeEtgf54ajeBw&usg=AFQjCNFLFDDysitEk5ei-IeH24JiBIEIUw&sig2=W3ANvaQXnAdwdB2vR4qLmg


some websites stating and explaining how flop ears are unnatural and how they came about.

[SnowKoi2010]

There is not scientific proof and you know there isn't thats why you where being a smart butt and bring it up. I say its untrue thats my own Opinion. And dogs who's stand up by cropping is said to make them look more mean or alert. Anyways I have to go to bed. Night.

and Luna, give it up.

[Eclipse]

There is not scientific proof and you know there isn't thats why you where being a smart butt and bring it up. I say its untrue thats my own Opinion. And dogs who's stand up by cropping is said to make them look more mean or alert. Anyways I have to go to bed. Night.

and Luna, give it up.

I asked for either first hand experience or scientific evidence. In the other posts it appeared as though you were stating "facts". I just wanted to reiterate that it was your opinion not facts.

As far as dogs looking "more mean or alert". Once again thats an opinion.

[Luna_Redmoon]

Name ONE wild dog, with natural, floppy ears.
And, ask any vet, or wildlife biologist, or anyone that studies evolution. DOGS were selectively bred from WILD wolves, coyotes, etc. Therefore, ALL dogs, are made by selectively breeding mutations. Originally, all dogs ears stood up. But, people, thinking its "cute" breed for the flop ear. And then breeding for other things, like height, coat length, color patterns, etc. And the genetic mutations got out of hand, over bred, and because of that, most dogs now are flop eared.

Recent study, mocking evolution, and proving the fact.
http://blogs.discovery.com/animal_oddities/2009/07/tame-foxes.html


Also, last I checked, this was a DEBATE thread on the topic. Therefor I am free to state anything that pertains to such.

I just dont like that you stated "no dogs ears naturally stand up" "stand up ears are unnatural" "train to ears to stand up in an unnatural way"

when you are wrong. because ALL dogs, originally, ears stood up.

come to think of it... I cant even think of any wild animal whose ears naturally flop... o.O
Even bunnies were bred to have that characteristic.

Except for maybe goats... but I dont study too much into Ungulates... So I dont know their original roots.

[SnowKoi2010]

You are right, this is a debate thread but you are taking it way out of context. There is a HUGE difference between wolves and Dogs. ASK your biologist. When we domesticated the species that became the dog they developed floppy ears. But because they now have floppy ears doesn't mean their ears should be forced to be upright again. :/ This thread is about ear cropping not about Wild dogs with naturally upright ears.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Myths-about-Dog-Ear-Cropping

Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.

[Eclipse]

Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.

Not liking it and a false argument against it for impeding a dog's ability to communicate are two very different things.

If it is in the breed standard it is part of it, no way around it.

[SnowKoi2010]

Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.

Not liking it and a false argument against it for impeding a dog's ability to communicate are two very different things.

If it is in the breed standard it is part of it, no way around it.

No, Breed standard is what the dog looks like once its matured with out tampering. Adding Docking and Cropping to a dogs looks takes it away from the standard and adds to what people think the dog should look like.

As for communication, IMO It does. you might not think so but I have seen many pictures of dogs with cropped ears and if it wasn't for knowing what the face expression meant I couldn't tell how the dog was feeling. There are a lot of people out there that do not know Canine Body Language and could easily misinterpret a dog that looks as though it is smiling with its tongue sticking out and get bitten because the dog is really anxious.

[Eclipse]

Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.

Not liking it and a false argument against it for impeding a dog's ability to communicate are two very different things.

If it is in the breed standard it is part of it, no way around it.

No, Breed standard is what the dog looks like once its matured with out tampering. Adding Docking and Cropping to a dogs looks takes it away from the standard and adds to what people think the dog should look like.

As for communication, IMO It does. you might not think so but I have seen many pictures of dogs with cropped ears and if it wasn't for knowing what the face expression meant I couldn't tell how the dog was feeling. There are a lot of people out there that do not know Canine Body Language and could easily misinterpret a dog that looks as though it is smiling with its tongue sticking out and get bitten because the dog is really anxious.

Two definitions of breed standard
1. A breed standard (also called bench standard) in animal fancy and animal husbandry is a set of guidelines which is used to ensure that the animals produced by a breeder or breeding facility conform to the specifics of the breed.
2. Standard of excellence set up by a breed association for its breed.


First what does a dog smiling with its tongue sticking out have to do with the dog's ears. Seeing pictures of a dog and seeing a dog in front of you are two very different things.

[SnowKoi2010]

Opps

[SnowKoi2010]

Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.

Not liking it and a false argument against it for impeding a dog's ability to communicate are two very different things.

If it is in the breed standard it is part of it, no way around it.

No, Breed standard is what the dog looks like once its matured with out tampering. Adding Docking and Cropping to a dogs looks takes it away from the standard and adds to what people think the dog should look like.

As for communication, IMO It does. you might not think so but I have seen many pictures of dogs with cropped ears and if it wasn't for knowing what the face expression meant I couldn't tell how the dog was feeling. There are a lot of people out there that do not know Canine Body Language and could easily misinterpret a dog that looks as though it is smiling with its tongue sticking out and get bitten because the dog is really anxious.

Two definitions of breed standard
1. A breed standard (also called bench standard) in animal fancy and animal husbandry is a set of guidelines which is used to ensure that the animals produced by a breeder or breeding facility conform to the specifics of the breed.
2. Standard of excellence set up by a breed association for its breed.


First what does a dog smiling with its tongue sticking out have to do with the dog's ears. Seeing pictures of a dog and seeing a dog in front of you are two very different things.

Well you can keep you breed fancy. If you do crop jobs then good for you. I do not, and nothing you say will change my mind or agree to it other than for medical purposes.If you have to cosmetically alter a dog to make it meet what people think the dog should like then you are no better than a BYB who over breeds animals. And not I gave that as an example to a dog who's ears are cropped and the dogs fac- you know what what ever. It doesn't matter what I say. You think its right I think its wrong. End of story. I'm done arguing with you because this is no longer a debate. Have a good day.

[Eclipse]

Back to the topic, Ear cropping does nothing for the dog, there for I wouldn't cry if they banned it all together. I like dogs with the natural look. When doing anything to a dog, it should be for medical reasons. And I don't mean at six weeks decide to crop the dogs ears because you think that they are going to get ear infections. You can avoid it, I have many times. I think that the Kennel clubs shouldn't have it as a part of breed standard because it isn't. If thats how the dog was intended to look, then they would have looked like such when they where born and as they grew.

Not liking it and a false argument against it for impeding a dog's ability to communicate are two very different things.

If it is in the breed standard it is part of it, no way around it.

No, Breed standard is what the dog looks like once its matured with out tampering. Adding Docking and Cropping to a dogs looks takes it away from the standard and adds to what people think the dog should look like.

As for communication, IMO It does. you might not think so but I have seen many pictures of dogs with cropped ears and if it wasn't for knowing what the face expression meant I couldn't tell how the dog was feeling. There are a lot of people out there that do not know Canine Body Language and could easily misinterpret a dog that looks as though it is smiling with its tongue sticking out and get bitten because the dog is really anxious.

Two definitions of breed standard
1. A breed standard (also called bench standard) in animal fancy and animal husbandry is a set of guidelines which is used to ensure that the animals produced by a breeder or breeding facility conform to the specifics of the breed.
2. Standard of excellence set up by a breed association for its breed.


First what does a dog smiling with its tongue sticking out have to do with the dog's ears. Seeing pictures of a dog and seeing a dog in front of you are two very different things.

Well you can keep you breed fancy. If you do crop jobs then good for you. I do not, and nothing you say will change my mind or agree to it other than for medical purposes.If you have to cosmetically alter a dog to make it meet what people think the dog should like then you are no better than a BYB who over breeds animals. And not I gave that as an example to a dog who's ears are cropped and the dogs fac- you know what what ever. It doesn't matter what I say. You think its right I think its wrong. End of story. I'm done arguing with you because this is no longer a debate. Have a good day.

Why would it no longer be a debate I was simply providing facts. I never stated my opinion on the ear cropping issue only on the canine body language issue.

Claiming I am "no better than a BYB who over breeds animals" if I prefer to crop a dog's ears, is truly laughable. It doesn't even make sense to compare the two things.

[SnowKoi2010]

Maybe a BYB is a little harsh, they are terrible. But Cropping a dogs ears because you think its the natural look is rather dumb too. Because the AKC likes cropping and docking all my dogs will be UKC. I eventually look for this practice to be banned in the future sometime and I'm surprised the well known animal activist PETA who oh so is for animal rights isn't all over cropping and docking.

It isn't natural and shouldn't be part of breed standers. Simply because it makes the dog look like its going to attack you (More alert), has no medical benefit, Inhibits the ability to read most canine body language (IMO) and isn't the natural look of the dog. If you have a medical reason for doing it so be it. But any other reason is selfish, especially for Conformation.

[Eclipse]

Maybe a BYB is a little harsh, they are terrible. But Cropping a dogs ears because you think its the natural look is rather dumb too. Because the AKC likes cropping and docking all my dogs will be UKC. I eventually look for this practice to be banned in the future sometime and I'm surprised the well known animal activist PETA who oh so is for animal rights isn't all over cropping and docking.

It isn't natural and shouldn't be part of breed standers. Simply because it makes the dog look like its going to attack you (More alert), has no medical benefit, Inhibits the ability to read most canine body language (IMO) and isn't the natural look of the dog. If you have a medical reason for doing it so be it. But any other reason is selfish, especially for Conformation.

Obviously cropping a dog's ears isn't the "natural look" afterall if it were there would be no surgery involved. Neither registries standard requires cropped ears. I believe if ear cropping is banned the practice of "home crop jobs" will increase drastically and the only ones hurt by that are the dogs. There are too many people doing that already. It is ignorant to claim cropped dogs "look like they are going to attack you" (IMO).

[trexgorawrrrrr]

You don't even know what you're talking about when it comes to eclipse's dogs... before you jump the gun & start calling her a BYB, maybe you should be quiet and learn about where they came from.