OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

by **MarMar** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:41 am

ChevellesMomma wrote:My male pit bull when I get one will have cropped ears.

Fortunately there are many you can rescue who have already had this done.

by **ChevellesMomma** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:19 am

MarMar wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:My male pit bull when I get one will have cropped ears.

Fortunately there are many you can rescue who have already had this done.

Plenty, but I will be getting a puppy then from a reputable breeder. That's years from now though.

by **bethh** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:36 pm

AllisonPibbleLvr wrote:I had an Aussie breeder (who I actually like very much) tell me that dobermans ears need to be cropped because when they are guarding things, they need to go through tight spaces and their ears could get torn.
WTF? seriously?

There's a group sending faxes to vet clinics defending their practices and their arguments are so ridiculous.

x2. Croppers & dockers cannot excuse the practice for any reason other than vanity.

by **ChevellesMomma** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:08 pm

Vanity? That's ridiculous. I understand some of you may disagree, but please don't start on the "I am better than you because I don't crop ears" thing. Not saying you are, but that argument gets old real quick. Ear cropping and tail docking do serve function in functional dogs.

by **MarMar** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:20 pm

I have yet to hear of ANY "actual" function that ear cropping/docking serves. Sure, if you cut off a tail it can't get broken but...that's a terrible reason. Legs get broken too.

by **ChevellesMomma** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:55 am

Just because YOU have not heard a reason you found plausible, does not mean there is none and that all croppers and dockers are vain. Sorry, but that's your opinion, NOT fact. To compare it to broken legs is ridiculous. Do you know how often a hunting dog rips its ears and tail? WAY more often than it gets a broken leg, I assure you. The ears and tail CAN be removed to help save the dog from certain pain later.

by **ChevellesMomma** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:57 am

However, I will have cropped ears on my show dog. If you don't like it, you should write to the kennel clubs and request that crooked ears be allowed and not faulted, but don't gripe at the people that do it because they want their dogs to place. It is not a painful procedure at all. It amazes me at the amount of people who seem to think it is brutal thing, that the vet goes in and just hacks their ears off with a dull knife while they scream...it's comical, really.

by **heartbullies** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:19 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:Just because YOU have not heard a reason you found plausible, does not mean there is none and that all croppers and dockers are vain. Sorry, but that's your opinion, NOT fact. To compare it to broken legs is ridiculous. Do you know how often a hunting dog rips its ears and tail? WAY more often than it gets a broken leg, I assure you. The ears and tail CAN be removed to help save the dog from certain pain later.

Actually.... Labs and all retrievers, Setters, Pointers, terriers, Catahoulas and Curs, Vizslas, Weims and Hounds, Sighthounds, Ridgebacks, and Spaniels all are kept uncropped and have been bred and used for hunting various animals in a variety of terrain world-wide for hundreds of years. If you're using "hunt" as a euphemism, well, the vast majority of gamedogs in the US were also uncropped and it appears the same is still true overseas. I would actually agree that ear cropping is for vanity and appearance. That said, I do like the look of some well-done crops on certain breeds. For the our breeds, it seems most prevalent in the AKC and UKC for stafs and pitterstafs, as well as the ABKC for the bullies, and much less common in the ADBA.

The docking *is* traditional for many of the non-water hunting breeds I listed. Tails are left natural for the APBT, AST, or SBT. In cases of "happy tail" some pit bulls do get docked. Although, I have never seen a retriever with "happy tail" or any other tail injury other than cold tail...

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by **Enigma** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:47 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:If you don't like it, you should write to the kennel clubs and request that crooked ears be allowed and not faulted, but don't gripe at the people that do it because they want their dogs to place.

Dogs with natural ears do win in the show ring, we have many natural eared dogs on this forum who do very well in the show ring. And even ShadowWolf's bat eared girl does well in the show ring:

I admire people who show natural eared dogs, I'm sure it's harder in those registries where cropped ears are still preferred, but it's not impossible. Plus I really like a nice ear set on a dog, with cropping you just hide all the possible flaws. Oh and in Europe it's illigal to show cropped dogs in some countries, I'm sure sooner or later other countries will follow so there won't be any need to crop a dog for show reasons anymore.

It is not a painful procedure at all.

Really? Let me see you cut off a part of your ear and still say that it's not painful at all. Common sense tells you that cutting off a part of your body IS VERY painful.

As far as the hunting dogs argument heartbullies said it nicely, most hunting breeds aren't cropped, some are docked, but it's proving to be unnecessary. If the main argument to cut off parts of a dog's body is the risk of them getting those parts injured, then we could amputate legs, because they can get broken, or pull out teeth because teeth also get broken all the time.. It doesn't make sense.

I used to be all for cropping, I was dead set on getting a show bred Amstaff puppy with cropped ears. I still think it looks good on certain breeds like Dobies, Amstaffs and Dogos. But then this little dumbo eared shelter dog came into my life and changed my view on things completely. The more I got to know her, the more I saw how important ears actually are. I can get all the information I need about what's she's about to do and what's she's feeling and thinking just by looking at the position of her ears, she's really expressive with those huge things lol

The same goes for her tail, it's much harder to read a dog who just has a little stub instead of a tail. At least for me. Mainly for that reason I would never crop a dog. Plus I prefer natural ears on an APBT.

The other reason is that it's an unnecessary surgery, it's painful, risky and serves no purpose. I really wish people would stop justifying it with lame excuses like showing and injuries.. Just admit that a cropped/docked dog LOOKS better to you and you're willing to put a dog through a painful procedure just because of that. It's a purely cosmetic surgery, nothing more than that (except in those rare cases where it's done out of health reasons).

by **Red** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:31 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:It is not a painful procedure at all. It amazes me at the amount of people who seem to think it is brutal thing, that the vet goes in and just hacks their ears off with a dull knife while they scream...it's comical, really.

Yes, that is why we have a thread about it, because a cosmetic and painful surgery for selfish reasons is comical and provide entertainment for the day.

ChevellesMomma wrote:If you don't like it, you should write to the kennel clubs and request that crooked ears be allowed and not faulted, but don't gripe at the people that do it because they want their dogs to place.

Done, so many times, and I also sign each petition I can sign, when it comes to banning ears cropping and tail docking all along, unless there is a valid health reason. But, as usual, breeders and owners have a cow over everything that denies them the "right" to do what the heck they want with theirs dogs, including cosmetic surgeries. There is nothing right in purposefully hurting an animal for the sake of a look or a placement in a dog show.Ah the tragedy if the dog does not qualify, like ears is all there is to a correct conformation and the whole dog.

by **MarMar** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:41 pm

Just because YOU have not heard a reason you found plausible, does not mean there is none and that all croppers and dockers are vain. Sorry, but that's your opinion, NOT fact. To compare it to broken legs is ridiculous. Do you know how often a hunting dog rips its ears and tail? WAY more often than it gets a broken leg, I assure you. The ears and tail CAN be removed to help save the dog from certain pain later.

I would love to see some data on cropping and docking helping dogs. I mean that seriously because if it's out there I would like to know about it. And see the above poster's reference on hunting dogs: how many of them have their ears cropped? If there was any breed that should have ears and tails done to save them from hunting injuries it should be retrievers and setters. But they are left whole.

However, I will have cropped ears on my show dog. If you don't like it, you should write to the kennel clubs and request that crooked ears be allowed and not faulted, but don't gripe at the people that do it because they want their dogs to place. It is not a painful procedure at all. It amazes me at the amount of people who seem to think it is brutal thing, that the vet goes in and just hacks their ears off with a dull knife while they scream...it's comical, really.

I WILL gripe at people who cut off their dogs' ears so they can "place". How ridiculous. As noted above, eared dogs CAN place, and last time I checked, a dog's ears had nothing at all to do with how well they can do their job, how healthy they are generally, how their temperament is, and how fine of a pet they make. It simply the frenzy of "breed enthusiasts" that keep it going. They don't love the individual dog, they love the abstract idea of what the "breed" should be or used to be.

And yes, ear cropping hurts (even if the dog is anesthetized for the procedure, aftercare sucks). So does tail docking.

http://rufflyspeaking.net/blog/as-promi ... roversies/
http://rufflyspeaking.net/blog/cropping ... 2-docking/

by **Shearaha1** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:01 pm

The way I see it most of the breeds that get cropped and/or docked were used as guard dogs, either for property or themselves or as fighting dogs. Cropping ears and docking tails makes the dogs harder for people and other dogs to read. With the exception of some herding and hunting breeds that are docked to "avoid tail injuries" it's all for intimidation.

by **Courtneyd137** » Wed May 09, 2012 4:53 pm

i'm against it it has no real purpose i'm honestly into the natural look

by **ChevellesMomma** » Thu May 10, 2012 1:03 am

I'll do what I want with my dog and anybody bigoted enough to try to make me feel bad for it can kiss my booty. :lol: I've witnessed and had crops done on many dogs a d it definitely doesn't hurt. Gripe all you want, but if you don't like ear cropping, don't do it...but don't try to control others simply based on your beliefs.

by **Red** » Thu May 10, 2012 1:10 am

ChevellesMomma wrote:I'll do what I want with my dog and anybody bigoted enough to try to make me feel bad for it can kiss my booty. :lol:.

I'll pass on that one. Your arguments, if it can even be called that, reflects just about all problems we have with dog ownership, lack of respect for living creatures and plain flipping selfishness..I'll do what I want.