OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Shearaha1 » Thu May 10, 2012 11:42 pm

Celesteandthebullies wrote:Heck, a non-cartilage ear piercing will hurt a bit afterward, at least mine did. The initial piercing only burned, but it hurt for a month or so after.

I got my cartilage pierced in 2000. It was OK for a bit, then got infected about a month out. I still have pain when something hits that part of my ear suddenly or quickly and sharply. After that no one can tell me that ear cropping isn't painful.

Also in the last year I've met almost a dozen dogs, primarily boxers and danes, that developed sound sensitivity and sound reactivity AFTER ear cropping that was not present before.
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OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Fri May 11, 2012 5:14 am

So don't use a furminator because it's a BLADE and you could hurt your dog but go ahead and crop ears with a scapel (which is a BLADE) because it doesn't hurt...
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OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Stormi » Fri May 11, 2012 9:59 am

ChevellesMomma wrote:I'm sure it doesn't hurt, properly done. Without pain meds, sure, I bet it hurts like a biotch.


Just out of curiosity, have you ever had any major surgery that required you to take pain meds afterwards?
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby starrlamia » Fri May 11, 2012 12:02 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:I'm sure it doesn't hurt, properly done. Without pain meds, sure, I bet it hurts like a biotch.

um, pain meds denotes it hurting properly done or not.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Courtneyd137 » Fri May 11, 2012 7:30 pm

Im saying its selfish to do it for personal reasons. How would you feel if someone cut half your ear off just so you can win in shows and just because they LIKED the look thats selfish it does nothing for the dog it puts the dog thru surgery when can be life threatning if the dog is allergic to the anestetic just so you can get some money in a stupid show or because you like the look you would put your dog in danger for some stupid dog show wins Yeah thats selfish you care about winning more then you do the walfare of your dog.. I would understand if it was for medical purpose for just to win a show or for the look thats DUMB
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Mooresmajestic » Fri May 11, 2012 10:38 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:I'm convinced it doesn't hurt because I have EXPERIENCE, not an Internet article. :lol:


I have experience, professional, surgical experience. I worked for a vet that did ear crops for years, and the only surgery that required the dog to be sedated after it woke up from the procedure was an ear crop and that was with 3 different types of after care pain meds. Major fracture repairs and FHOs received less pain meds than ear crops. I have watched one too many dogs wake up from surgery screaming and slamming around the cage because of pain from a crop to ever want to put a dog of my own through that purely for looks (and yes I have show dogs, and natural ears have NEVER altered a judges placement of my dog). Unless you have worked in a surgical suite and assisted in the actual procedure, you can't claim "experience". You can say you want the ears cropped because you like the look, prefer the expression it gives or any thing else, but don't say it doesn't hurt to have done.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Shearaha1 » Sat May 12, 2012 1:35 am

Mooresmajestic wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:I'm convinced it doesn't hurt because I have EXPERIENCE, not an Internet article. :lol:


I have experience, professional, surgical experience. I worked for a vet that did ear crops for years, and the only surgery that required the dog to be sedated after it woke up from the procedure was an ear crop and that was with 3 different types of after care pain meds. Major fracture repairs and FHOs received less pain meds than ear crops. I have watched one too many dogs wake up from surgery screaming and slamming around the cage because of pain from a crop to ever want to put a dog of my own through that purely for looks (and yes I have show dogs, and natural ears have NEVER altered a judges placement of my dog). Unless you have worked in a surgical suite and assisted in the actual procedure, you can't claim "experience". You can say you want the ears cropped because you like the look, prefer the expression it gives or any thing else, but don't say it doesn't hurt to have done.

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OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby ChevellesMomma » Sat May 12, 2012 1:43 am

Yes, I can say it doesn't hurt to have it done if it is done properly. Those dogs that woke up screaming obviously didn't get the right amount of meds and get it done PROPERLY. I have never had a dog be in pain, because they were on pain meds 24/7 until they healed, point blank.

You see, this whole "debate" would be fine and dandy, except it's not a debate. It's a bashing thread. I will never call someone names for having a different opinion than me. Do you know what that's called? It's called being a bigot. So saying I'm "selfish" and whatever else was said is just childish and further proves that you're running out of decency in a debate so you have to take low blows. I feel sorry for those that can't debate without resorting to those sorts of things.

I am not against ear cropping or tail docking, if it is done properly.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Kingsgurl » Sat May 12, 2012 2:08 am

She's not talking about dogs going home, medicated. She's talking about how they come OUT of anesthesia, before those other meds come into play. I wouldn't be so quick to discount people who watch dogs wake up, they are there, they see it. You are free to make your own choices on 'if it hurts' or'is the pain worth it to me' but I've seen it too. My Vet won't do them anymore because of it. It haunts you. But then they go home all medicated in their cones and the owners are all 'see, it doesn't hurt at all!"
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OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Sat May 12, 2012 5:57 am

ChevellesMomma wrote:Yes, I can say it doesn't hurt to have it done if it is done properly. Those dogs that woke up screaming obviously didn't get the right amount of meds and get it done PROPERLY. I have never had a dog be in pain, because they were on pain meds 24/7 until they healed, point blank.

You see, this whole "debate" would be fine and dandy, except it's not a debate. It's a bashing thread. I will never call someone names for having a different opinion than me. Do you know what that's called? It's called being a bigot. So saying I'm "selfish" and whatever else was said is just childish and further proves that you're running out of decency in a debate so you have to take low blows. I feel sorry for those that can't debate without resorting to those sorts of things.

I am not against ear cropping or tail docking, if it is done properly.


It's hard to hold a debate when your argument is that in your "experience", ear cropping doesn't hurt. It's like someone in a debate on global warming claiming that the sun is not our source of energy-- it's so logically and scientifically ludicrous that it makes the person making the argument lose all credibility.

You can support ear cropping, you can have your dogs ears done however you like, but you can't claim it doesn't hurt, based on your "experience" without seeming ignorant.

And you still haven't explained what said experience is.

Many of us who understand and put into place post-op pain control protocols feel that needing to use a SEDATIVE following an ELECTIVE procedure simply to keep the animal comfortable upon recovery is nearly barbaric. For you to suggest that Moore's clinic simply didn't follow protocols for pain management properly makes your whole argument seem childish.

Do some research on pain response and management protocols and THEN suggest that ear cropping, just like ANY surgery isn't painful. The difference is, ear cropping is cosmetic and elective.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Courtneyd137 » Sat May 12, 2012 10:33 am

it is selfish because your doing it for your personal reason's. IT does NOTHING for the dog.

The dog could die during surgery because of the anestetic but you wouldnt care because all you want is to win some dog shows

You would possible RISK your dogs life just to win some money why would you make your dog go thru a surgery just so YOU can get something out of it THe dog doesnt care if he wins in shows or not

Please dont risk your dogs life just to win a few dog shows... The dog gets nothing out of winning its selfish because its for your personal reasons. If it was for medical reasons yea but its not so dont do it.. You can win shows with the natural look. Ive seen pits with cropped ears The natural look is alot better.. My dog would not go thru any surgery thats not needed the only surgery she ever had was getting her spayed
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Mooresmajestic » Sat May 12, 2012 11:57 am

ChevellesMomma wrote:Yes, I can say it doesn't hurt to have it done if it is done properly. Those dogs that woke up screaming obviously didn't get the right amount of meds and get it done PROPERLY.


Actually the dogs were given 3 types of pain meds before the procedure was even started so pain management was effective upon waking. There is a reason the vet's keep the dog overnight after a crop, it's so the owners don't see what their pet looks and acts like for the first 24 hours.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby starrlamia » Sat May 12, 2012 12:19 pm

But it does hurt, as pain meds are required, and do you really keep your dogs in pain meds for several weeks straight?

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby MarMar » Sun May 13, 2012 11:37 am

ChevellesMomma wrote:Yes, I can say it doesn't hurt to have it done if it is done properly. Those dogs that woke up screaming obviously didn't get the right amount of meds and get it done PROPERLY. I have never had a dog be in pain, because they were on pain meds 24/7 until they healed, point blank.

You see, this whole "debate" would be fine and dandy, except it's not a debate. It's a bashing thread. I will never call someone names for having a different opinion than me. Do you know what that's called? It's called being a bigot. So saying I'm "selfish" and whatever else was said is just childish and further proves that you're running out of decency in a debate so you have to take low blows. I feel sorry for those that can't debate without resorting to those sorts of things.

I am not against ear cropping or tail docking, if it is done properly.


This is an internet forum. Yes, it's a place for debate, but it is also a place for people to state opinions. When you come to a dog lover's forum and state that you will crop your dog's ears because you like the way it looks and you don't care otherwise, and then state that it does not hurt, which is completely false, you have to accept that people will vehemently disagree with you. This is not "bashing". This is people who care about animal welfare above aesthetics expressing their concerns.

This is the proper definition of "bigot" for future reference: "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance".

Seems like you are the one doing the name calling here.
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby NAILHEAD » Thu May 31, 2012 7:49 pm

I personally think cropping and docking is wrong and cruel to animals. They were not born this way and have no choice in the matter. It's pure vanity and serves zero purpose for dogs today. I consider it "trendy" and animal abuse especially ( like i said before) because they have no say in the matter. The best read up I got from a quick search was this :

" Robert Wansborough argued in a 1996 paper that docking tails puts dogs at a disadvantage in several ways. First, dogs use their tails to communicate with other dogs (and with people); a dog without a tail might be significantly handicapped in conveying fear, caution, aggression, playfulness, and so on. Certain breeds use their tails as rudders when swimming, and possibly for balance when running, so active dogs with docked tails might be at a disadvantage compared to their tailed peers. In 2007, Stephen Leaver, a graduate student at the University of Victoria, published a paper on tail docking which found that tail length was important in the transmission of social cues. The study found that dogs with shorter tails (docked tails) would be approached with caution, as if the approaching dog was unsure of the emotional state of the docked dog. The study goes on to suggest that dogs with docked tails may grow up to be more aggressive. The reasoning postulated by Tom Reimchen, UVic Biologist and supervisor of the study, was that dogs who grew up without being able to efficiently transmit social cues would grow up to be more anti-social and thus more aggressive. "
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