Low Fat Food Choices

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.

Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby El_EmDubya » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:54 am

Ms. K you might want to research two fellows called Kellogg and Graham, while you are at it.
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby El_EmDubya » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:59 am

Google is your friend:
Acute pancreatitis in two dogs given azathioprine and prednisone.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3679957
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby Red » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:27 am

El_EmDubya wrote:PS Prednisone is known to cause pancreatitis, along with antibiotics. Unfortunately a lot of these "modern" medicines work against the third law of physics which states that for every action there is an equal and opposite action. Every medication creates motion and the "equal and opposite" motions are the side effects. Sometimes we don't see those side effects until well after the initial motion, sadly.


My Tux is on your usual Pred, Metronidazole and now added Budesonide (Pred on alternate days, Budesonide daily).
The idea for the Budesonide was to try to avoid the Pred, even if still a steroid, and use just that to manage his bouts of IBD. He had a Pancreatitis attack earlier in the year, which ended up with a diagnosis of IBD. I could not really avoid the Pred (don't like it myself), because I almost lost him and went with what all the vets he had seen himinsisted to use. Same with the Metronidazole, which the vet wants to use as soon as the diarrhea start. I was not able to get any significant diet advice from any of these vets, minus "avoid the fats", so I did a lot of research on my own. Took some of Mary Straus advice.

It is frustrating indeed, and there are so many different opinions that one can't be 100% sure of what to do.I am worried about adding fat, I am not even feeding duck because of his higher content of fat, or put him on a raw diet. The dog is still not gaining any weight and beside the Honest Kitchen Preference (not a kibble) he is eating the cooked fresh meat and what I mentioned on my post before.I have a question for you on something, if you don't mind, and will send you a PM.

Interesting comment on the grass/dirt eating. Tux likes his dirt.
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:45 am

El_EmDubya wrote:Google is your friend:
Acute pancreatitis in two dogs given azathioprine and prednisone.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3679957


Azathioprine DOES cause pancreatitis. Prednisone does not.
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:58 am

El_EmDubya wrote:
And, dogs and humans shared similar diets up until 1900s...which, yes, both were ~70% fat.


From what? Last I checked, (and I do, as a snake owner), mice, rats, and other prey animals do not contain 50% body fat, so therefore, where would they get this type of fat content in the diet? Certainly not from vegetables and grains. The only species I can think of that could even possibly reach 50% body fat is racoons, and thats due to commercial farming practices.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholeP ... 2May29.pdf
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby El_EmDubya » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:08 pm

Caloric content...duh, not volume.
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:35 pm

El_EmDubya wrote:Caloric content...duh, not volume.


Ah, well in that case, since fat contains 2.25 times more calories than protein or carbohydrates, then 22.5% fat content seems shockingly reasonable for the average pet. For pets with pancreatitis (not IBD), the restrictions are much higher.

Since the original post and all the previous discussion was percentage fat content of canine diets and not percentage calories, I think your "duh" comment was uncalled for.
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby El_EmDubya » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:29 pm

Ms. K, Since this entire conversation has been about caloric content, as mentioned in the initial posts, and, in medical nutritional consults, the distribution of caloric percentage between Fat/Protein/Carbs is very standard, I would have expected you, as a medical professional, to know.

So, I guess the issue is that you can dish it out:

Misskiwi67 wrote:Seriously?? In what world is this good advice for ANY species? In what part of nature does this EVER occur (outside possibly arctic mammals?)??


But you can't take it:

El_EmDubya wrote:Caloric content...duh, not volume.


I think, in the future, if you want respect you should ask meaningful questions... I'm perfectly happy to have a meaningful discussion with you as I LOVE this stuff ...

Now for everyone else...The reason you want to stick to calories (even tho' they are meaningless) is that it allows you to "normalize" issues with water weight and content. When you picture an average daily consumption for a 50 lb sedentary dog, it is a chunk of meat/bone/fat about the size of the average woman's fist. The total volume of fat for a 25% caloric contribution would be the equivalent of your thumb, minus the fleshy bit. It isn't a lot of fat.

For those with pancreatic issues, using MCT (virgin coconut oil, preferably) bypasses the need for bile and supports an anti-inflammatory diet, as inflammation is where pancreatic issues start (http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2011/04/9694/u ... tic-cancer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Inflammation is the start of all disease according to many many researchers... just something to think about when you are carb loading...

Anyway, coconut oil's antibacterial properties help clean up GI issues. MCTs can be administered through IV, in the event that normal digestion cannot occur (when the GI system is removed due to cancer, for example). They are extremely safe and provide up to 60% of caloric intake for epilepsy treatments.

LMW
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby El_EmDubya » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:43 pm

Oh, and sorry for forgetting to put this link:

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/search/label/pancreatitis

It explains why colostrum may be so helpful for pancreas problems...

And that blog is just a good resource, in general, to get your mind going. The last post was on Gut health and supports my previous comments about the importance of flora variety. IMHO, I believe that dogs eat grass to receive internal flora that supports their digestion, afterall, when you are pulling stringers from your dog's poopshoot, you'll notice that very little is digested. Nature is a smart woman ;)

My nutrition prof also recommended that we all let our kids lick the floor, go barefoot, and not to wash their hands prior to eating meals as he'd seen the benefits of a "dirty" lifestyle in his biochem research. It is something I see with my current students as well as the contribution of antibiotics to obesity, acne, and ADHD.

Back to work,

LMW
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby PitBull-Lady » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:31 pm

oh my, looks like we've got off topic.
Let's get away from the fat/no-fat slinging.

So, the last day I've been feeding 1/4 C of the Annamaet with each meal. There has also been MAJOR stimuli in the yard, so unfortunately I can't gauge the poop. Stupid DEER!!!! (MissKiwi, tell that 10-pointer his friends are jack-a$z)
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby Red » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:10 pm

I don't think it is off topic, there are info that concern IBD in dogs and diet/foods. Being on the same boat, thanks for taking the time to type some extra info and links, LMW.
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby mtlu » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:56 pm

I need to thank El_EmDubya also for the very good info on rebuilding gut flora/GI issues.

Molly is about halfway through a 90-day course of broad spectrum antibiotic for a condition totally unrelated to what is affecting Capone and Tux but that will be the longest time she has ever been on antibiotics (would have loved another option but there wasn't and I really dread that such a long term dosage will put her at risk of developing GI issues). I know what I have done in the past after 10-14-day courses is not going to be enough to bring her GI tract back to normal. So far, I am not seeing anything wrong but as soon as she is done, I will be using some of the info here.
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby HappyPuppy » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:36 am

^ Good wishes for Molly!

How much fat (just read it is an MTC) does coconut oil really contribute? I'm trying to watch overall fat but I wish to incorporate coconut oil....
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:58 pm

El_EmDubya wrote:Ms. K, Since this entire conversation has been about caloric content, as mentioned in the initial posts, and, in medical nutritional consults, the distribution of caloric percentage between Fat/Protein/Carbs is very standard, I would have expected you, as a medical professional, to know.

So, I guess the issue is that you can dish it out:

Misskiwi67 wrote:Seriously?? In what world is this good advice for ANY species? In what part of nature does this EVER occur (outside possibly arctic mammals?)??




In Veterinary Medicine, we discuss Fat/Protein/Carbs in dry matter or as fed basis, not based on calories. When you read the labels on a dog food bag, you read percentage of fat, not calories from fat per serving. In people, the average person eats the same number of calories per day, or close to it. In animals, caloric needs per day can vary from 100 to 1,000 calories per day, and the comparisons are much harder and percentages work much better.

No seriously... as in conversational shock. Seriously, in what world is 50% fat content a good diet for any species, let alone in a conversation concerning dogs with pancreatitis. Bad medical advice is bad advice, end of story. Your information on gut flora, fiber, probiotics etc. is very good, particularly for dogs with IBD, which you clearly have a lot of experience with.

Your recommendations for pancreatitis in DOGS was horrible. I seriously hope no dogs are hurt in the future because of your recommendations. I state again, prednisone does not cause pancreatitis in dogs, and in fact, it is used for treatment in severe cases.
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Re: Low Fat Food Choices

Postby El_EmDubya » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:29 pm

El_EmDubya wrote:Ms. K, Since this entire conversation has been about caloric content, as mentioned in the initial posts, and, in medical nutritional consults, the distribution of caloric percentage between Fat/Protein/Carbs is very standard, I would have expected you, as a medical professional, to know.

So, I guess the issue is that you can dish it out:

Misskiwi67 wrote:Seriously?? In what world is this good advice for ANY species? In what part of nature does this EVER occur (outside possibly arctic mammals?)??


But you can't take it?
El_EmDubya wrote:"Caloric content...duh, not volume.




So, Ms. K, you want to treat a pancreatic problem with a high carb diet? When high carb diets CREATE INFLAMMATION????

REALLY?

REALLY? Let's think about this.. Pancreatic issues are caused by inflammation of the Pancreas. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001268/

If they were my dogs, the FIRST thing I'd do would be to address the issues with inflammation. Only THEN would I worry about the bile issues...but with MCT, you don't have to worry about bile. Right, Ms. K? You don't need bile salts for MCTs, hence the body isn't stressed through the digestion process.

So, we aggressively go after inflammation, which may restore pancreatic function, esp when chronic IBS + few pancreatic attacks is the dog's history. (Carbs cause inflammation, so a high carb diet isn't very smart for anyone/any beast.) Once inflammation is under control, neurological function should be addressed. How is this done?

A high fat diet! (Just look at disease and psychological issues in humans since the 1970s to see why low fat/low cholesterol diets don't work. And, for Gawd's sake if any of you are taking Statins...get the freak off them. High fat is healthy!!! BUT, you need to know whether you need highly saturated, long chain, short chain, etc. )

ALL FATS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL.

And as for diets in the +50% fat content range...hold on to your hats people... It is extremely well known in ancient cultures that high fat diets are healthy. LOW FAT IS A RECENT FAD. This fear of fat was encouraged by the ag lobby in the 70s and is now being dis-proven by many researchers. Check out Dr. Stephan Guyenet's comments:

It's clear from the anthropological literature that hunter-gatherers did not go after representative animals. They went after the fattest animals they could find. They knew exactly which animals were fattest in which seasons, which individuals were likely to be fattest within a herd, and which bodyparts were fattest on an individual animal. For example, Stefansson describes how the Inuit relied on (extremely fat) seal in the spring, wolf in the summer, and caribou and bear in the fall and early winter. If necessary, they would discard lean meat in favor of tongue, marrow, internal organs, back fat and other fat-rich bodyparts. This was in order to obtain a minimum of 65% of calories from fat.


You are welcome to research the following cultures if you are looking for information on high fat diets:
Masai (Africa)
Northern India (Meat eaters)
Crete (Greece)
Georgia (former Soviet Republic)
Okinawa (Japan)
and of course the Inuit

But you might also want to research "rabbit starvation"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

and the use of Pemican by Native Americans which has between 70-80% fat and traditionally no carbs.

It is all interesting stuff, if you are willing to read, talk, and question Conventional Wisdom.
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