OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.

Postby PitBullPride » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:28 pm

I had Shais ears done..from a reputable vet with anesthesia, etc. I paid extra for the Rimadyl pills for afterward. She has healed beautifully...She's going to her first ADBA show next month. :)
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Postby AllAmericanPUP » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:51 pm

cropping=hiding faults.

A lot of show people crop ears because their dogs don't have the "perfect pit ears" i.e. rose ears.
so all they are doing is hiding faults so their dogs will win ;)
no offense
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Postby PitBullPride » Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:01 pm

I understand what you're sayin. But i'm not one of those cases. She had nice formed ears.....and I participate in shows to do something fun that my dog and I can enjoy, not to be all obsessed about winning, lol. Plus, if she did have 'faulty' ears, I wouldnt crop her ears just to hide that. :)
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Postby Leslie H » Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:26 pm

As a show person, I gotta tell you, ears are just not that big a deal. The only dog to have won UKC's National Grand Champion title twice has natural ears, 1 rose, 1 drop. When you show a natural eared dog, judges will just move their ears when studying their head. Any judge who's going to put a lot of weight on ears is not one whose opinion I'd value, anyway. I've often wondered if Xanny's ever been penalized for her overly short crop. I wish she had ears, but..
I know people who have docked their ab's tails to hide kinks, or corkscrewish remnants that point to their eb ancestry.
Duckzilla, you leave me baffled. You're throwing all this data around, but there's no direct correlation. And humans ugly hand has so scewed canine DNA that w/the exception of some nifty lethal recessives, we can do pretty much whatever we want, regardless of how counter to survival it is, and get away w/it.
ears are designed by nature to best suit the organism on which they reside

If I adhere to this not unreasonable premise, a logical conclusion would be, that since wild canids have upright ears, and nature has selected for those traits best suited for survival, and good hearing increases the likelihood of survival, then erect ears allow the best hearing, so rose and drop ears should be cropped.
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Postby duckzilla » Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:35 pm

Leslie, I implore you to think about your most recent comment. :wallbang:

If what you said were true then I'd have my legs cut off and reversed because I could run faster if my knees were backwards like most land based mammals. It is ignorant to believe what is good for one species is also good for another species, which in this case isn't even in the same food chain. C'mon you don't expect anyone to believe that nonsense, and I certainly suspect you do not believe it yourself. 8l

But we all know that modifications will always be considered the norm, be it breast augmentation to stem cell research to our own companion animals "asthetic appearances". Personal preference will supercede any and all logic.
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Postby Leslie H » Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:47 pm

I'll bang my head if you'll bang yours.

It is ignorant to believe what is good for one species is also good for another species,

Duckzilla, I know you're doing this w/good intentions, but geeze. I said you couldn't take data from research on the human ear, and apply the conclusions to ear cropping dogs. I'm not going to argue w/you, but I don't think you actually know what you're talking about.
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Postby duckzilla » Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:59 pm

roflmao
I wasn't comaparing a HUMAN ear to a DOG ear! :stick
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Postby Demo Dick » Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:41 pm

Is sure sounded that way to me.

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Postby duckzilla » Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:49 pm

I was only trying to illustrate my point that science explains why ears are the way they are, for any organism... Yet, no one can provide a scientific explanation on why ears are cropped.
duckzilla wrote:My train of logic is simply that ears are designed by nature to best suit the organism on which they reside.


Right, I see where I used a comparison between humans and dogs... :huh?:
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Postby AllAmericanPUP » Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:51 pm

most people that I have talked to that have gotten a puppy for show purposes always crop their ears "cause they have a better chance of winning" :dunno:

Yet, no one can provide a scientific explanation on why ears are cropped.


That's because it is 100% cosmetic
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Postby Demo Dick » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:09 pm

I was only trying to illustrate my point that science explains why ears are the way they are, for any organism... Yet, no one can provide a scientific explanation on why ears are cropped.


Your point is moot. What you are forgetting is that the very concept of breeds is fundamentally unnatural. The ear set and design of every domesticated dog is a direct result of human design, not evolution. There is no "scientific" reason for the design of uncropped dog ears in the first place.

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Postby duckzilla » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:20 pm

Oh contrare

Ear design is stored in the DNA, Dick. :nana:

Like I said... PLEASE :pray Do some research prior to trying to debunk scientific method. Please, you'll only sound biased and stuck on rhetoric.
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Postby Demo Dick » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:31 pm

Ear design is stored in the DNA, Dick.


And the DNA is manipulated by humans via breeding. We CREATED the ear design of domesticated purebred dogs.

Like I said... PLEASE Do some research prior to trying to debunk scientific method. Please, you'll only sound biased and stuck on rhetoric.


LOL. You can't argue from a superior point of view until you actually understand what you are talking about. My position is that breeds themselves are an artificial human creation. Thus, arguing that ear set in domestic dogs is "natural", i.e. untouched by man, is wrong. I am not arguing against the scientific method, and to be brutally honest, I'm not sure you understand what it is in the first place. What I am saying is that since we created every different breed of domesticated dog, you can't argue that their ear design serves any "evolutionary" purpose.

No come back and tell me how my argument is unscientific.

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Postby PitBullPride » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:33 pm

I agree 100% Demo..... :bowdown:
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Postby duckzilla » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:52 pm

I could certainly go on and on about how "unscientific" your answer to mine is.

However, based on the facts, you are arguing out of an effort to make your dog "ok" because his ears are cropped. You have nothing to prove to me. You have a damn fine animal, all of you do.
All I'm trying to point out, all I have been trying to point out is that cropping/docking is an ancient art thats been around for longer than any of us... But does anyone recall the dark ages? Yeah.. Morbid approaches to physical enhancement are not scientific. Thats it. I can provide you mountains of scientific evidence to support everything I've said. I don't need to, and you don't need to spend time reading it.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that what they've done is wrong. I'm trying to hear one just one good reason why so many have cropped/docked extranneous body parts and flesh. So far all I've heard is personal attacks on my character."you don't know what you're talking about" without any rebuttal that I could put to a scientific explanation.

Nuff said. You have your way, I have mine. It's clear the line is drawn pretty semetrically between those for and those opposed.

I just want to understand. I don't want to make it wrong. Like I said before, I apologize if my humble opinions offend, or irritate.
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