OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.

Postby blover27 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:45 pm

very... roflmao
I can't take this ridiculous thread anymore.
and yet i am 99.9% sure you arent done yet lol
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Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:22 pm

duckzilla wrote: You take your "tribal" knowledge. I'll have my science. I won't have to prove my point any further. You all have done it for me. You refuse to accept fact for your own imagination. Thats fine. Just don't sell your dogpiles here. I ain't buyin.


*LAUGH*

You are TOO funny!

You go on and on about science and nature, but when someone brings up the FACT that NATURE does not create drop ears you have a hissy fit. Oh please.

Turn on Animal Planet and please find me 5 species of animals (non-domestic) that have natural drop ears. Find me three even. I'll wait.

I have no dog piles to sell, I have observation. It's not complicated. Almost without exception, the only animals on earth with ears that cover their ear canals in a 'full drop' are animals that HUMANS have selectively bred. You are trying to refute the evidence located in the ENTIRE animal kingdom.

Explain how that is 'tribal'. It is BASIC science, millions and millions of animals exist in this world - they are what back up the claims that ears don't have to have covering flaps to make them function correctly. If drop ears were 'better' or 'healthier' or 'anything-er' than prick ears then the animals that have drop ears would flourish and the animals with prick ears would slowly die out. It's natural selection - the oldest 'science' in the universe. What works stays, what doesn't work dies out.

I agree 100% that cropping ears is a needless surgery that has no benefits at all for the dog. (With the exception of medical reasons, but that's not the issue here.)

An upright ear is the ONLY type of ear found in 99% of the animal species on earth, wild canines ALL have upright ears. With small variences, all canines have the same physiology, so... since all wild canines have prick ears and all domestic canines are nearly the same physiologically as wild canines it is NOT a stretch to see that prick ears - even on a breed of dog that doesn't 'naturally' have prick ears - are not detrimental in any way to the dog.

Michelle
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Postby GreddysAngel » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:40 pm

Why all the :po: and :crybaby:
Its a matter of opinion and preferance
Chillax :cool:
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Postby JaquelineC » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:42 pm

GreddyGirl wrote:Chillax :cool:


Yes! Rock! That's the first time I've heard anyone (aside from myself) use this term!

:headbang: lol
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Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:57 pm

duckzilla wrote:I never called anyones dog ugly. I said I THINK it is ugly.


Let's see... you didn't say Ruby was ugly, but you sure took care of the left handed insults...

duckzilla wrote:I'll preface the following with ... TO ME... it looks horrible.

I know that some of you on here have your dogs ears and tails hacked, and, I mean you no disrespect.

If you want you dog looking like a vulcan thats awesome

Morbid approaches to physical enhancement are not scientific


That's sort of like me saying that brown dogs are the ugliest dogs on earth... but that's just my opinion. It's still an insult.

And to avoid jmann's wrath, I will now break my own rules and respond to multiple posts... :roll: 8)

duckzilla wrote:The earlobes are desiged, by nature to carry sound waves to the brain. It is a known fact that sound waves deviating from the natural path from ear lobe to the ear canal can and does cause developmental as well as perceptual and mental problems animals.


I agree with you 100%. So by looking at NATURE we can conclude that all dogs should have prick ears, because all wild dogs have prick ears. Humans have redesigned the look of dogs, but they have not redesigned their inner ear shape or function. The natural un-fooled-around-with shape of a dog's ear is a prick ear, the prick ear is the 'natural path' of the earlobe to the ear canal.

It actually makes sense - when you cup your hand around your ear you hear better. A dog will full prick ears will have similar benefits. Now put your hand over ear, simulating a full drop ear - your hearing capacity will diminish.

duckzilla wrote:Refer specifcally to tests performed on persons having lost thier ears in accidents and the likes by neuropathologists etc.

Here is where you tell us we should refer to tests performed on HUMANS to support your claims about canine hearing.

duckzilla wrote:Michelle, you're over emotional, and it's perfectly clear you cannot and do not respond intellectually when you're upset

I'm not 'over emotional' I'm annoyed. I respond intellectually whether I am upset or not. Sorry, I actually get more 'to the point' the more ticked off I get. And if you think this is 'upset' you ain't seen nothing yet.

Nature disproves what you are saying, so you are saying that nature is wrong. To use YOUR logic, all dogs should have prick ears so that they don't develop (and I quote)
duckzilla wrote:developmental as well as perceptual and mental problems.


The beginning and end of the debate is really that cropping and docking have no health benefits and they do not harm either. Cropping and docking are performed 99.9% of the time because an owner wants their dog to look different than they do naturally.

I have a hard time with people who crusade against the 'horrors' of cropping and docking when there are FAR more important issues facing our breed and dog owners in general.

On the priority list, this just doesn't make the top 10 for me.

Anyway, I started this thread to keep the rest of the forum unpolluted by this endless arguement... that's the point. And it isn't a ' "non ear cropper" bash party'... but is ALSO isn't a 'I'm smart and you neandrathals aren't anywhere near my level of intellectual superiority - I present you with facts and you do nothing but be mean to me.' thread.

And now back to your regularily scheduled mud slinging.

Michelle
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Postby JaquelineC » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:07 pm

lol

Great post Michelle!!
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Cropping and docking

Postby Maryellen » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:11 pm

I like the look of the cropped ears on certain breeds of dogs. on other breeds of dogs it looks funny. on pits and dobes it looks good as long as the one who did it did it right.
all my dogs have their ears, but i would never turn down adopting a dog that had cropped ears. (i couldnt afford the cropping and neutering of rufus or i would have had his ears done).

i personally feel its the individuals choice to crop or dock their dog, and no one should take that right away. Look at California, they wanted to take away cropping and docking because europe banned it. thats so stupid.

i wonder how rufus would look with cropped ears? probably very handsome.
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Postby Demo Dick » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:38 pm

Duckzilla, I hate to break this to you, but you officially lost the argument about 10 posts ago. But I'm sure that that won't stop you from championing science.

I'm off to read entrails. Gotta find out of it's going to rain tomorrow!

Demo Dick
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Postby Odnarb » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:31 pm

mnp13 wrote:If they did they would become head shy to an extent, as that is the result of a dog that is afraid due to injury or abuse.



Poor genetics, too. I'm seeing more & more dogs that shy away like the stereotypical "abused" dog that never had a finger layed to them. In fact, I'd venture that most "abused" dogs that come into the clinic are dogs with crappy temperaments that may or may not lack socialization.

Brando acts like he was "abused," but he has never in his life remotely been.
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Postby Leslie H » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:38 pm

Demo, I hope you're using goat entrails, and not sheep. They've been proven to be 75% more accurate.
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Postby Odnarb » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:40 pm

mnp13 wrote:
It is FAR less traumatizing when it is done with a band in the frist few days of life.

Michelle



Except when it doesn't happen right, infection sets in and the pup becomes septic.

I see SOOOOOOO many bad banding jobs, not even counting the pups that become ill. Bone exposed, scarring, etc.



mnp13 wrote:Like I said earlier, tail dockings at a vet are horrible.



Seriously, have you ever watched tailed being docked PROPERLY by a vet? I've assisted with many litters. Pups scream when you take them from mom & sibs, then stop screaming when you put them back. I have yet to see pups keep on screaming like was posted here. Those pups were likely done imporperly or too old.


duckzilla wrote:The earlobes are desiged, by nature to carry sound waves to the brain.



Dogs are not natural, and the natural ears typically found in the breed are not naturally occuring.

When I look at Bloodhound ears, "Sound Funnels" are the last things that come to mind.
Last edited by Odnarb on Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Demo Dick » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:53 pm

Goat entrails are a MUST. ANYONE who knows anything is aware of this. If you're using sheep entrails, you're in the dark ages.

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Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:12 pm

Odnarb wrote:
mnp13 wrote:It is FAR less traumatizing when it is done with a band in the frist few days of life.


Except when it doesn't happen right, infection sets in and the pup becomes septic.

I see SOOOOOOO many bad banding jobs, not even counting the pups that become ill. Bone exposed, scarring, etc.


I stand corrected - I should have posted 'banding, when done corectly, is far less traumatizing....'

Odnarb wrote:
mnp13 wrote:Like I said earlier, tail dockings at a vet are horrible.


Seriously, have you ever watched tailed being docked PROPERLY by a vet? I've assisted with many litters. Pups scream when you take them from mom & sibs, then stop screaming when you put them back. I have yet to see pups keep on screaming like was posted here. Those pups were likely done imporperly or too old.


My dad worked for a vet, they did tail docks with what was basically a large pair of sharp pliers. Very young puppies didn't seem to care, but once the pups were older than a few weeks he said they SCREAMED. Someone here posted a while ago about the vet they worked for digging the last bone out of the tail after a dock so that they had extra skin to put a stitch in. *gag*

Odnarb wrote:
duckzilla wrote:The earlobes are desiged, by nature to carry sound waves to the brain.


Dogs are not natural, and the natural ears typically found in the breed are not naturally occuring.

When I look at Bloodhound ears, "Sound Funnels" are the last things that come to mind.


ODNARB!!!! There you go again being 'tribal'! Don't you understand that duckzilla only relies on SCIENCE????!?!?!

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby Odnarb » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:57 pm

mnp13 wrote:My dad worked for a vet, they did tail docks with what was basically a large pair of sharp pliers. Very young puppies didn't seem to care, but once the pups were older than a few weeks he said they SCREAMED. Someone here posted a while ago about the vet they worked for digging the last bone out of the tail after a dock so that they had extra skin to put a stitch in. *gag*



You damn the procedure because a hack was doing it incorrectly? Puppies shouldn't be done once they are past a few days old. Did you really think that the vet your dad worked for was doing it correctly? :yucky:

That's like damning ear cropping altogether because Ruby's breeder used scissors on her. But, you recognize the difference on that issue. I guess I'm confused.
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Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:07 pm

Ok. He told me it was standard procedure at the vet he worked at.... just chop them off. The 'dig out the bone' was from someone here, but I can't find it.

Past a few days old, I think docking should be done under anestetic - however I know of a number of vets who do it up to a month old with out. I was honestly unaware that it was not 'standard procedure' to do it this way.

I guess I was confused.

My bad.

Michelle
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