OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

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Brianna&Bubba.
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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Brianna&Bubba. » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:39 am

I may get shunned for this but I really just want to put some insight on this topic and my situation.
I also just want to say that I read Reds comment over and over again before deciding to post this.

Here it goes.. I recently moved into the country on a 5 acre property with my fiance. Our home is almost perfectly centered on the property so we are quite a ways from the road and a ways from the river in back and our neighbors are spaced out also. We have two dogs, Bella and Bailey. Bella is a year and Bailey is about 9 months now. We moved out here in August. Before moving out here, their recall was good and they always responded and listened. We practice recalls and getting the idea of their allowed boundaries everyday. This continued and they began respecting the boundaries where they were allowed to play on this bigger property. The fencing here was built probably in the 70s and is all broken barb wire, we are in the process of getting the fencing done but my fiance has to do all of it because we dont have the thousands of dollars to spend on labor alone (its also hard to do when our tractor and auger keep breaking and our land is to hard to get it done at a an even normal pace) Zipline and tie out was an option and was used but they got frustrated being restrained when all they wanted to do was play and run or hang out around us.

With all this room to play and being very high energetic dogs, there was 2 situations that happen last month in which made me consider an invisible fence. Both times, they were hanging out outside with me and my fiance supervised. They are never outside when we are not there watching them. One of the times they started running towards the road (at least two acres away) in the middle of some serious play, they decided to run towards the road and decided to ignore my calls. I caught up to them and it was like a game to them to just ignore me and then just happily followed me back home like nothing was wrong while I can barely breathe.. They spent the next week outside only on tie outs when we were outside and thats when I noticed their frustration being seperated and wanting to play because the two tie outs tied close together created a tangled and possible dangerous mess. Zipline could've worked but then I decided not to because play could've been dangerous also with the lines and them wrestling and playing. Which I believe they deserve and need. These girls play very well and its exercise and letting them get rid of that huge amount of energy the two have. So I begin being more focused and frequent on recalls and calling them and they listened very well and then again, in the midst of play they ran off again. I couldve been doing something wrong with the training recalls, but they seemed so responsive until these two times.. Anyway the same thing happened and they followed back and then they were on the tie outs again... So I was conflicted, I cant let them be off leash because I'm terrified that they may run again and I might not catch them before an angry farmer does... But they are depressed and frustrated tied up outside. They decided to play inside the house and full blown zoomies in my small mobile home was just not a good idea. Then the neighbor told me that its really important to keep them contained because people wont hesitate to shoot a dog that may threaten their livestock, not to mention being pitbulls... This is what honestly really made me consider getting one. So... I looked into pros and cons on electric fences and decided to get one.

Training with the new fence included putting the collars on the lowest setting and taking walks around the perimeter and paying attention where the warning sound happens and then walking away from the warning sound and letting them experience the shock after crossing the sound perimeter. Walking away from the sound meant a treat, walking away from the shock meant a treat. I tried to add some positive reinforcement along with the harsh training.. This happened spaced out within a few days so I could avoid overwhelming them. The first time of them freely roaming, they remembered and understood right away the noise meant stay away. It did not take one correction for this to happen, it took a few within the days we spent walking the perimeter and understanding what the warning sound means. In the beginning the warning sound meant staying away.. They got use to the idea of the beep meaning keep away as a daily routine so now, yes, they avoid the shock all together and hardly go near the perimeter and hardly go close enough to hear the warning sound. Occasionally when they get close enough to the sound, they remember that means stay away. They have all this room to play and I am assured they respect the boundaries enough to not run pass them in the midst of play and that makes me feel they are safer. I feel they are safer, but I understand that they are not contained, and that is why I will not let them outside unsupervised.

Here are the understandable cons to e fences and my opinion with my situation:
-Being shocked when interested in outside stimulus: we are in the center of a 5 acre property and the outside stimulus (road, people/dogs walking, neighbors, other animals) is to far away to notice. They have maybe a little less of an acre in the middle to roam and play. There is no issue of them being interested in outside stimulus because, well, there isn't any in sight.

-Collar shock fails and damage: the collars are taken off inside the house really just for comfort reasons (are always on when outside to avoid confusion, like red said before) and the settings have been set at the lowest setting for each of them since day one and there is no damage at all. I have kept them in my view at all times outside and I see that they do not go near the fence to experience the shock anymore because they not only respect the perimeter much more now but they respond to the warning sound immediately to avoid the shock. It has been this way for the past couple weeks.

-Other animals/people can come in: My two are only outside when me and/or my fiance is outside with them. So in the case where other animals or dogs came onto the property, one or both of us would be there to intervene. I find this unlikely also because there are not many dogs in the area and the ones Ive seen are in kennels full time. Yes they can and may get out but I am sure with us being not very far away and always supervising, we will be able to intervene to avoid them getting shocked or hurt in this case. But I find it just very unlikely seeing that everyone is very spaced out and neighbors animals are contained within small kennels.

-Causes dogs to become unsure/confused/aggressive/depressed: The first few times while trying to learn the perimeter on our leashed walks wasn't pleasant but that is why I tried to reinforce treats along with it. Only a few times did they experience the shock after crossing the noise, and then when they followed me away from the shock, they got a treat. It wasn't pleasant at all, but I do not see any lasting emotional damage on my two girls. They understand the beep means stay away. If they happen to cross the sound border while playing, I see them continue playing in the other direction. My two are not afraid to go outside, I know it has not been very long but I see no difference in behavior at all.

I will not be surprised if I'm bashed, but I wanted show a different situation to you guys. Yes, my training skills and/or determination could have been at fault for them not respecting my calls in the two situations before hand but I did try. So yes, I went with a harsher and easier way of training to assure that my girls respect and understand the boundaries much better while they get the exercise and play they deserve..

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Brianna&Bubba. » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:49 pm

I've been trying to read through the whole thread and after reading about half way there is things I want to add. I also just want to add onto my post about the emotional effects of using the collar. I admitted it wasn't pleasant while getting my girls to understand the sound and the shock. But I don't want anyone to misunderstand that they were being very hurt. Unlike what I've read in this thread, the lowest setting for the both of them was effective since the beginning.

They reacted to the shock with a whine and then we walked away and they got a treat. After a while, and they would hear the noise, they became unsure and confused, and would just stand there. When I noticed them become unsure and confused with the noise because they knew the shock happened after crossing it, we went into the middle of the property to play fetch. I'm happy to see that they do not get scared by the noise, because I have seen them hear the noise while playing and then they continued playing more closer within the boundaries.

Again, I want to add again that I have not seen any behavior changes at all with my two. They are the same happy, goofy, clumsy, and super energetic dogs I had before the e fence.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Graham » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:36 am

not sure how to delete this double posting. sorry.
Last edited by Graham on Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Graham » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:37 am

mommy2kane wrote:yes, there was a trainer who suggested i put him down because of his extreme level of dog aggression. that was a while ago (probably over 2 years ago) and i remember actually contemplating it. granted, i'm glad i didn't.

but overall, i think it's difficult for some people to really understand the level of dog aggression i've had to deal with, without seeing it firsthand.

:clap :clap :clap

Such a good point. Every dog is different and what might work for one dog might not work for another dog. Some people are all about 100% positive dog training. Personally, the dog needs some rules, boundaries & limitations. They need to know somehow when they are doing something that you, the pack leader, don't want them to do. Of course we can show them what we want them to do (replacement behaviors), but we also need to somehow show them that we disapprove certain behaviors. There are several ways of doing so that are humane. People also need to remember that the strongest part of a dog's body is their neck. A dog's neck is built nothing like a human's neck.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:56 pm

Graham wrote:
mommy2kane wrote:yes, there was a trainer who suggested i put him down because of his extreme level of dog aggression. that was a while ago (probably over 2 years ago) and i remember actually contemplating it. granted, i'm glad i didn't.

but overall, i think it's difficult for some people to really understand the level of dog aggression i've had to deal with, without seeing it firsthand.

:clap :clap :clap

Such a good point. Every dog is different and what might work for one dog might not work for another dog. Some people are all about 100% positive dog training. Personally, the dog needs some rules, boundaries & limitations. They need to know somehow when they are doing something that you, the pack leader, don't want them to do. Of course we can show them what we want them to do (replacement behaviors), but we also need to somehow show them that we disapprove certain behaviors. There are several ways of doing so that are humane. People also need to remember that the strongest part of a dog's body is their neck. A dog's neck is built nothing like a human's neck.


"Pack leader" is such a ridiculous term. Why must we insist on dumbing animals down by assuming that they see us as pack leaders? They don't. They see us as resource providers. Withholding resources is a powerful way of communicating that we disprove of certain behaviours without resorting to force.

You can believe whatever school of thought you want when it comes to dog training, but the science stands behind certain methods regardless of whether you believe them to be true or not.

http://www.awesomedogs.ca/ad_dog_training_science.shtml

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:56 am

What if the dog is better at finding those resources than you are - such as wild game? My well-bred gun dog is certainly opening up new worlds to the meaning of "prey drive". She's 4 months old and ready to runn 100yd tracks, her nose and drive are that instinctive...

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Red » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:12 am

AllisonPitbullLvr wrote:
"Pack leader" is such a ridiculous term. Why must we insist on dumbing animals down by assuming that they see us as pack leaders? They don't. They see us as resource providers. Withholding resources is a powerful way of communicating that we disprove of certain behaviours without resorting to force.

You can believe whatever school of thought you want when it comes to dog training, but the science stands behind certain methods regardless of whether you believe them to be true or not.

http://www.awesomedogs.ca/ad_dog_training_science.shtml


Hard to get that message across, Allison. It always makes me laugh (somehow , not funny at all) when I see people claiming they own that one dog who is "just that dog aggressive" that no other methods but high level of aversion work for him/her. Like they are the only ones! I have owned , and still own, a few dogs (cared for them regardless, for their life time) that are a no go with other dogs, on the extreme side. No, let me be a bit more clear....dogs that would not be kept alive in the 99% homes that are out there. Dogs that veterinary behaviorists would write off. I do understand how hard it is, I really do, and I questioned things too, down the road.I pretty much lived to keep those dogs happy and safe, and it is a one person choice, because no one else will "get it". Yet, I do not want to keep those very same dogs alive using electric collars and other aversive methods, on a regular basis. Those very some dogs reached goals that did not seem doable, because of how much efforts were put int them. My personal rule is....if I can't compromise enough, through management and methods that are not chocolate enough to make a dog's life miserable, then I do not want to keep those dogs alive in the first place. Just my opinion anyway. Again, I do know how hard it can be, as an owner of tough to deal with dogs and behavior consultant that sees the ugly side way too often.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Curly_07 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:49 pm

Red!!! Good to see you!


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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Graham » Wed May 21, 2014 1:46 pm

AllisonPitbullLvr wrote:
"Pack leader" is such a ridiculous term. Why must we insist on dumbing animals down by assuming that they see us as pack leaders? They don't. They see us as resource providers. Withholding resources is a powerful way of communicating that we disprove of certain behaviours without resorting to force.

You can believe whatever school of thought you want when it comes to dog training, but the science stands behind certain methods regardless of whether you believe them to be true or not.

http://www.awesomedogs.ca/ad_dog_training_science.shtml


Just because you do not agree with the term "pack leader" doesn't mean that you should call it ridiculous. I come to this forum to try and get information and opinions. You can give your opinion without insulting mine. I am reading books by several different authors and they use the term "pack leader." Fact: Dogs are pack animals. If you're not a leader, then you are a follower. Call it what you may; but I would appreciate it if you would not call it ridiculous. It's comments like that that make me not want to come back to this forum for fear of ridicule.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Amie » Thu May 22, 2014 3:11 am

Graham wrote:Fact: Dogs are pack animals.



Well, no, that's not a fact. Yes, we once thought that was true, but we know it isn't anymore. For some reason some self-proclaimed experts are having a hard time letting go of the idea, but the fact is actually that animal behavior is a science that we are still learning about, and the most recent information says dogs are not pack animals and don't respond to a dominance hierarchy after all. Were any of the books you're reading written recently, by scientists? Here are a few articles on the topic:

http://academyfordogtrainers.com/blog/2 ... k-animals/

http://www.caninemind.co.uk/pack.html

http://www.4pawsu.com/k9myths.html

http://www.greatshakesdogtraining.com/a ... k-animals/

http://www.vcahospitals.com/main/pet-he ... -mean/4947

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 416-1.html

http://behavior.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/loca ... tement.pdf

http://www.dogwise.com/authpub/dominanc ... xcerpt.pdf

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/Forge ... _Pack.html




I'm glad you came here to get information - I know I just threw a lot at you, but hopefully the articles will help you see how we've progressed at understanding dogs!

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Graham » Thu May 22, 2014 2:08 pm

Pack animal or not, that wasn't the point of my post. My point was that everyone should be able to speak their opinion. Disagreements are fine. They are a part of life. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Saying you disagree is fine. But saying it's ridiculous is not fine with me.

Currently I am reading books by Patricia McConnell and Turid Rugaas. My current focus is trying to better understand my dog to improve the communication between us.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Thu May 22, 2014 4:18 pm

It IS ridiculous.

ri·dic·u·lous
adjective
deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd.


The fact that such a term still exists despite the mountains of science proving otherwise, is absurd.

Whether you like it or not, that is my opinion. You can agree to disagree with my opinion, but I was not being rude. Being rude would have been had I called YOU ridiculous, which I didn't and I don't believe, because I've been there. I've bought in to all of the nonsense before.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Nickdawg » Mon May 26, 2014 10:01 pm

Graham wrote:Pack animal or not, that wasn't the point of my post. My point was that everyone should be able to speak their opinion. Disagreements are fine. They are a part of life. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Saying you disagree is fine. But saying it's ridiculous is not fine with me.

Currently I am reading books by Patricia McConnell and Turid Rugaas. My current focus is trying to better understand my dog to improve the communication between us.



completely off topic but your dog's markings are awesome!

also have heard good things about Patricia McConnell..


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